Attention Dean & other future AI'ers

[COBRA #17]

I have read part of the post Dean... on the board.
One word of warning!!!!
There is going to be a torque limit most likely for next year!!! This has caused a problem on the west coast this year!!! We ( on the east coast ) want to head this off to keep this from happening on the east coast!!! Guys have spent big bucks on high torque motors and made it hard for the smaller guys to be competitive!!
Also we had a problem over the weekend with Lester using G Anderson's car. We hope to out law this for next year. For one reason it would be hard for D Hunt to trade cars,so why should anyone be able to trade cars ?!?!
We are all about being fair and keeping it close and interesting for the spectators!!!

AI East Asst Director
COBRA #17

[sn8kbit]

how are you guys going to manage that? limit cam profiles? limit valve sizing? honestly, i'm curious simply because of the money to spend on tear downs after the fact, not just stirring the pot. (pro'lly cause i'll never be able to compete AI, but friends do,and i love hearing about it....)

[98banana]

I'm curious too. I would assume it'll be a ratio limit right? Kind of like the 9.5:1 on weight:hp...

If that's the case, any ideas on what the limit will be?

[COBRA #17]

Dyno's are the answer!! It worked this year so it should work next year!!
I know it is not easy to build a motor with certain limits but it can be done with the proper research and planning.
I got burnt earlier this year on the HP limit because I'm not a motor builder and had to geuss. Plus the guy helping me build my motor is a chevy guroo. So we were both in the dark, but we were within 50 HP of what we were told it would be, and what we planned on !!!! I was under weight by 130 lbs. It hurt me points wise the rest of the year but adding the weight actually helped the car.
We just want to have close and interesting racing for the racers and spectators !!!!!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Nothing is in stone but we are talking!!!!
:flash:

AI East Asst Director
COBRA #17

[sn8kbit]

just random thoughts...

while the HP to weight ratio is an awesome idea, trying to limit by using that can cause misdirected feelings toward the individual on the dyno if he's off. also, you can still get into a money issue when designs of certain parts aren't limited, just the number generated based on weight.
personal opinion (even tho i'm not involved) would be to do some kind of across the board limit on certain parts, and those parts are usually where the most money is spent on design and research.
one of the things that impressed me the most was how well basically stock powered cars were being driven competetively. that's what makes us little guys proud. but when you can afford to pay a guy to research and design a part, versus a guy that can only afford to buy off the shelf, it's going to take away from that.

hoover, glad to see you guys trying to nip this before it hurts what i think is soon to be one of the more popular racing series....

[Dean95CobraR]

Originally posted by COBRA #17
I have read part of the post Dean... on the board.
One word of warning!!!!
There is going to be a torque limit most likely for next year!!! This has caused a problem on the west coast this year!!! We ( on the east coast ) want to head this off to keep this from happening on the east coast!!! Guys have spent big bucks on high torque motors and made it hard for the smaller guys to be competitive!!
Also we had a problem over the weekend with Lester using G Anderson's car. We hope to out law this for next year. For one reason it would be hard for D Hunt to trade cars,so why should anyone be able to trade cars ?!?!
We are all about being fair and keeping it close and interesting for the spectators!!!

AI East Asst Director
COBRA #17


Thanks for the heads up but I'm not sure how this is going to help me now. At this time my motor is being built. What am I suppose to do now, wait till the last minute to build the motor? Not to mention all the extra money that I will have spent for a motor that might not even be able to get legal for next year. :doubt:

I understand the concept of keeping things close but I had all intentions of following the rules which now seem to be changing. I was trying to put some thought into this deal to build a better mouse trap but I guess I've been outsmarted.:(

Before I put on the TA/PHB, could you tell me if these will be outlawed too because of the unfair advantage it creates over the stock cars? I'm sorry if I sound a little pissed but I have already put a lot of money in this car for a series that doesn't pay a dime. Hell, I sold a '95 R just to run in this series. :mad:

BTW - I am not pissed that there could possibly be a torque limit, I just think it is really bad timing.


Done ranting for now. :rolleyes:

[COBRA #17]

I felt the same way afetr getting DQ'ed for the weekend !!!

This problem has caused some big issues out west and have been talked about before! I'm not sure who you are I don't know everyone on this board so I can't address this personally (sorry :( )
We don't mean to cause problems but want to improve things to come !!! :thumbsup: As long as you aren't really radically over torqued you should be OK. Don't sweat it or get pissed!!
Some guys out west were building 270 hp 450 trqe motors and WE DON'T WANT THIS !!!!!:mad:
Changing and improving the rules are a part of improving things for the future. If you email me I will put you on the email list and make sure you get all the updates!!! hooverracing@aol.com
That goes for all interested!!!:thumbsup:
TA & suspension mods will remain the same !!!! The weight limit thing was anounced several weeks ago. 2850 for AI & 2600 for AIX

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

PS; I sold a 95Saleen SR to get into this so don't feel like a loner !!!

[johnbasf]

I guess I'll just keep the good ole mod motor in mine. Hey, didn't the guy win the AI part of the series with a MOD MOTOR??? :D :D

[kevin]

Originally posted by COBRA #17
Dyno's are the answer!! It worked this year so it should work next year!!
I know it is not easy to build a motor with certain limits but it can be done with the proper research and planning.
I got burnt earlier this year on the HP limit because I'm not a motor builder and had to geuss. Plus the guy helping me build my motor is a chevy guroo. So we were both in the dark, but we were within 50 HP of what we were told it would be, and what we planned on !!!! I was under weight by 130 lbs. It hurt me points wise the rest of the year but adding the weight actually helped the car.
We just want to have close and interesting racing for the racers and spectators !!!!!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Nothing is in stone but we are talking!!!!
:flash:

AI East Asst Director
COBRA #17

just wondering here. but, what about a stock motor and car? i.e. an 00r?

[COBRA #17]

Well I just got off the phone with Dan Slick. and we discussed the TRQE issue, amoung other issues ( he is going out of country for 10 days!). He says Ryan Flaherty and hiself have shyed away from the TRQE issue for now because they don't feel it is that big of an advantage!!! I know we had some big discusions earlier in the year because of the stuff out west. People seem to be a little more level headed out here!!! :thumbsup: THANK GOODNESS !!!
Anyway sorry to get some of you stired up but just trying to give you a heads up and help you out !!!! :D

Anytime any of you guys have an AI question feel free to give me a call, if I don't have the answer I'll do my best to get it for you !!! H 540-965-3357 M 540-969-7475 hooverracing@aol.com

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

[Dean95CobraR]

Originally posted by COBRA #17
I felt the same way afetr getting DQ'ed for the weekend !!!

This problem has caused some big issues out west and have been talked about before! I'm not sure who you are I don't know everyone on this board so I can't address this personally (sorry :( )
We don't mean to cause problems but want to improve things to come !!! :thumbsup: As long as you aren't really radically over torqued you should be OK. Don't sweat it or get pissed!!
Some guys out west were building 270 hp 450 trqe motors and WE DON'T WANT THIS !!!!!:mad:
Changing and improving the rules are a part of improving things for the future. If you email me I will put you on the email list and make sure you get all the updates!!! hooverracing@aol.com
That goes for all interested!!!:thumbsup:
TA & suspension mods will remain the same !!!! The weight limit thing was anounced several weeks ago. 2850 for AI & 2600 for AIX

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

PS; I sold a 95Saleen SR to get into this so don't feel like a loner !!!

Not being a dick or anything but the horsepower rule was there from the start. You knew the rules from the beginning. I don't know a lot about motors either so I am still worried about getting too many ponies for my weight. I don't believe that my motor will get even close to those figures that you quoted on torque. I assure you that I'm not spending enormous amounts of money on it either.

Wow, I can see how those motors could throw a wrench in things though.

[Dean95CobraR]

Originally posted by johnbasf
I guess I'll just keep the good ole mod motor in mine. Hey, didn't the guy win the AI part of the series with a MOD MOTOR??? :D :D

You're exactly right John. There is more to winning than just the motor. It takes a helluva lot of skill which Bryan has plenty of.:thumbsup:

[Dean95CobraR]

Originally posted by COBRA #17
Well I just got off the phone with Dan Slick. and we discussed the TRQE issue, amoung other issues ( he is going out of country for 10 days!). He says Ryan Flaherty and hiself have shyed away from the TRQE issue for now because they don't feel it is that big of an advantage!!! I know we had some big discusions earlier in the year because of the stuff out west. People seem to be a little more level headed out here!!! :thumbsup: THANK GOODNESS !!!
Anyway sorry to get some of you stired up but just trying to give you a heads up and help you out !!!! :D

Anytime any of you guys have an AI question feel free to give me a call, if I don't have the answer I'll do my best to get it for you !!! H 540-965-3357 M 540-969-7475 hooverracing@aol.com

AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17


That's great news! I guess I can stop thinking of ways to explain to my wife why the motor that I had built won't be legal. :eek:

I'm sorry that I got so riled up but I've gone too far to turn back now and I don't have the funds to start over. I am really looking forward to running with you guys next year.:thumbsup:

[COBRA #17]

Well Dean I'm not assuming you are a WEENEE but you live in a motorsports area acording to your bio. I live in the STICKS !!! Just ask Brian !!! The nearest rear wheel dyno to me is over 200 miles away at least !!! So dynoing is not an easy task !!!! You can estimate but even the best can make wrong guesses!!!

Yes driver makes up aot of it and that is what we are trying to keep in this !!! Make it a drivers race and it is a hell of alot more interesting !!!!

Consistancy is what Brian has had all year and that is what wins you !championships !!!! PLUS HE IS A GREAT DRIVER TOO !!! :thumbsup: Don't get me wrong !!!:p I am proud of our group as a whole this year Hell I've only been doing this for 2 years myself !!!!:thumbsup:


AI EAST ASST DIRECTOR
COBRA #17

[smashedheadcat]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by COBRA #17
[B]Well Dean I'm not assuming you are a WEENEE but you live in a motorsports area acording to your bio. I live in the STICKS !!! Just ask Brian !!! The nearest rear wheel dyno to me is over 200 miles away at least !!! So dynoing is not an easy task !!!! You can estimate but even the best can make wrong guesses!!! [quote]

There aren't many dyno's around there I assure you. Michigan is probably the closest one.

[Dean95CobraR]

Originally posted by smashedheadcat
[QUOTE]Originally posted by COBRA #17
[B]Well Dean I'm not assuming you are a WEENEE but you live in a motorsports area acording to your bio. I live in the STICKS !!! Just ask Brian !!! The nearest rear wheel dyno to me is over 200 miles away at least !!! So dynoing is not an easy task !!!! You can estimate but even the best can make wrong guesses!!! [quote]

There aren't many dyno's around there I assure you. Michigan is probably the closest one.


Well, you are right but I am a little closer than he is. I have Chicago at around 130 miles, Jackson which is a little closer at Pauls High Performance and Kenny Brown in Indy at about 130 miles.

Does NASA usually specify where you have to get a dyno at?

[Jack Hidley]

Dean,

What are the specs on the engine you are building? I have been looking at most of the AI engine combinations out here for a year and a half. I've seen the dyno data for all of them.

If your car weights 3000lbs, you only need 315hp. This is not hard to do. Probably the biggest mistake I've seen is people building an engine with a cam, ports, etc that are too big. You want to maximize your area under the curve.

I haven't seen any 270hp/450lbs/ft engines out here, except on my notepad:) The easy way to limit the torque is to limit the displacement. With a power limit, and a displacement limit, there is no way any one is going to get a major advantage over any one else except by.....but that's obvious, so I won't mention it:)

[Dean95CobraR]

Originally posted by Jack Hidley
Dean,

What are the specs on the engine you are building? I have been looking at most of the AI engine combinations out here for a year and a half. I've seen the dyno data for all of them.

If your car weights 3000lbs, you only need 315hp. This is not hard to do. Probably the biggest mistake I've seen is people building an engine with a cam, ports, etc that are too big. You want to maximize your area under the curve.

I haven't seen any 270hp/450lbs/ft engines out here, except on my notepad:) The easy way to limit the torque is to limit the displacement. With a power limit, and a displacement limit, there is no way any one is going to get a major advantage over any one else except by.....but that's obvious, so I won't mention it:)

Hi Jack,
At this time my builder is still playing around with combinations. This is kind of a challenge for him since normally he builds high horsepower engines in the vintage racing circuit. It took a little explaining of the AI rules to make him fully understand what I was trying to acheive. I don't think that my appoach will have much of advantage but every bit helps. If I've got to build a motor reguardless, I might as well make the best of it.

I am still concerned that I will end up with too many horses but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.

Once everything is nailed down, I will let you know.

[svt_coupe]

Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Does NASA usually specify where you have to get a dyno at?

No. (Somebody correct me if this is changing for next year) The way it worked last year--> At the first race, we had to supply a dyno chart of the car that was within 45-60 days of the first race. There was also a dyno on hand so the top placers were put on the dyno and the cars were run. Those dyno plots were kept on file, as were the weights for the car. At subsequent events, the cars were dynoed and weighed, sometimes at random depending on finishing spots, etc. If something on the car was changed (new cage, new power parts, etc.), the car was supposed to be once again weighed and dynoed.

All of the dyno/weigh sessions on my car were done at the track.

As far as the Mod motor... In April, my car dynoed at 288.6 rwhp (Tom, I was wrong... I told you 288.9). In October, it dynoed at 288.4 rwhp on the same dyno. A 0.2 RWHP change (I know some garage door openers that have more HP than that) in an entire season!!

Mod motors are heavy and complex, but there's something to be said for those numbers!! :D :D

[kevin]

Originally posted by svt_coupe
[to be once again weighed and dynoed.

All of the dyno/weigh sessions on my car were done at the track.

]

yea, but you kept taking the easy way out - winning:rotf: :rotf: :thumbsup:

[johnbasf]

Originally posted by svt_coupe


Mod motors are heavy and complex, but there's something to be said for those numbers!! :D :D

Repeat this several times during the off season!!!!!!!!!!

[johnbasf]

Originally posted by kevin
yea, but you kept taking the easy way out - winning:rotf: :rotf: :thumbsup:

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: Read this DOLT!!!! :D :D :D

[svt_coupe]

Originally posted by johnbasf
Read this DOLT!!!! :D :D :D


Yeah yeah yeah.... I hear you John...

John wants me to keep the mod motor. I've decided to go pushrod. I'm putting a 2.3L in it. I really liked the 88 crank HP that it put on on my '89 LX.

[97whitevert]

ohh yeahh.... do that shugg.. and then i'll join you out there.... i got right at 100 hp with mine....:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[kevin]

Originally posted by svt_coupe
Yeah yeah yeah.... I hear you John...

John wants me to keep the mod motor. I've decided to go pushrod. I'm putting a 2.3L in it. I really liked the 88 crank HP that it put on on my '89 LX.


does nasa have an ai/junior class???:rotf: :rotf: