Fuel cell question

[Racer_726]

How often do you change the foam on the 95R or 2000R fuel cell? Any advice as far as fuel cell maintenance and best souces for replacement foam?

I've heard once a year before, :( but I'm not sure I want to do that.

Thanks,
Dave

[Cobra-R]

Didn't know we were suppose to replace it. Original foam is still in all my cars. :eek:

Brian

[AV8R]

You got me stumped.

[mustangmad]

Check out Fuel Safe's website. They say the FIA and NASCAR mandate replacement every 5 years. Hmmmmm, my '95 is how many years old? This is for sanction approval. Don't know about day to day safety. http://www.fuelsafe.com/FAQ.htm

Maybe we should check on a group purchase?

Dean

[95cobraR]

I agree with Fuel Safe. My experience with road race cars taught me to change the bladder every 5 years since the bladder material will degrade, fall apart and end up in your fuel filter.

All the fuel cell manufactors sell replacement bladders that replace the original bladder. Cost is reasonable. On a R you have to drop the tank.

[Racer_726]

I know about the bladder being five years, but I thought the foam was annually. I was worried about it breaking apart.

From the responses here, I guess I shouldn't be too worried.

Thanks,
Dave

[mustangmad]

Well as we discussed here a few months ago, there is limit to our fuel cell's useful life! My '95 R has sprung a leak. Dropping the tank wasn't a problem but... Fuel Safe doesn't list a replacement bladder for this cell. Just the entire unit for something like $1600.!!!!! Merry Christmas indeed!

Anyone have a suggestion re where to go for the best deal?

Happy Holidays!
Dean S.

[95cobraR]

Dean,
Try calling them. I believe they will build one for you. They should have all the measurements. It should only be around $500 for replacement bladder with foam. If you can, please post where it started leaking after you drop it and inspect.

If you would like to inquire about a group purchase (if it's cheaper), I would be interested.

Doc
95R#113

[mustangmad]

Thanks for the info. I will call FuelSafe tomorrow (Monday)and inquire about the bladder replacementand group buy.

Anyone else interested? Let me know and I will let you know.

Dean S.

[mustangmad]

Spoke w/Brian at Fuel Safe today and here are our options:

1. Replacement bladder for the R lists for $1113.25!!!

2. He can "wholesale" one through a dealer for $968.53.

3. A group purchase of 7 to 10 brings the price to $856.25

OR
4. Remove the old bladder, clean it and send back to Fuel Safe and they MAY be able to repair it. But it is no longer certified. Cost depends on repairs necessary.

Still seems rather pricey so I have a call into Racer Parts Wholesale. They are a distributor for Fuel Safe and have much better pricing than the factory according to their website.

[95cobraR]

Wow,
That is much higher than I estimated. I just bought a Fuel Safe replacement (15gal.) for $400. I thought the 22 gal. would only be $500. I assume it is a more complicated design.
Check your PM.

[95cobraR]

Brian,
Do you have any thoughts on this?

[mustangmad]

Spoke with Nick at Racer Parts Wholesale re the replacement bladder and he quoted $907.63.

Pulled the cell apart today and the bladder is nasty looking. The material that's used to coat and seal (I guess) is dried out, cracked and peeling off the bladder. Fortunately the foam was in very good shape. That costs another $160 if needed.

I'm going to think on this for a day or so before ordering, tho I don't seem to have any other options at this point.

Anybody else need a fuel cell replaced?

Dean S

[95cobraR]

Dean,
Sorry to hear the bladder is useless. It sounds like a problem we will all have soon.

My 2 cents. Go with the replacement bladder and new foam. That would solve any future problems and keep the car in original condition. I would think that putting the old foam in a new bladder would cause you to have to pull it soon when it starts to dissolve and get in the filter.

If you make Sebring this year, look us up in the racer's paddock between the start/finish and turn one. I'll have a red truck, blue 'w/ white stripes car. There is a good chance I'll have some extra tickets.

[mustangmad]

Doc,

re Sebring, you going on the weekend of the 12 Hr? Or for the big vintage event that's usually a few weeks before the 12 Hr?
I hear Steeda is planning a Sebring event in late March or April.

Back to the fuel cell, do you really think I should replace the foam? It appears to be fine, not fuzzy or flaking or dried out looking. However, while it's all apart the smart thing is to do it all, even the fuel pump, I guess. You know how it is, tryin to save a few bucks and it comes back and bites you in the butt (and wallet) later.

I will be calling my order in tomorrow AM. Anyone else need a fuel cell?

Dean S

[95cobraR]

Yea, I'll be at the 12 hour. We have a race 2 weeks before the 12 hour (HSR), and a support race (along with SCCA touring/GT) to the 12 hour weekend (SVRA). Our practice is Wed., dash race on Thur., enduro Fri., and exhibition laps before the 10:30 am start of the real race on Sat. We'll be camping in the car trailer all week. Did you go last year? I thought that storm was going to wash me into Sebring lake.

I heard about that Steeda event. It sounds like fun.

Like you said, It'll probably bite you back if you don't replace the foam. The new bladder should last another 10 years (?) or so. I don't think that foam will hold up another 10 years. You don't want to show up to a track and find out the filter is full of foam. Good idea on the pump and screen. Keep the old pump for a spare.

I think I'll wait on my new cell. It will not save any money on yours and my race budget is already shot.

And where is Mr. Moderator to help us out here??:flush: :zz: :zz: I noticed he won "best moderator". Maybe he is collecting his award?

[mustangmad]

Yeaah I was there last year. We camped in the Mobil 1 hospitality area and found that our spot was the lowest ground in Sebring. When the rain quit the water was almost knee-deep! Everything was floating around, what a mess! But then in typical Florida fashion, Saturday was a scorcher. Another "Classic" Sebring weekend.

Let's stay in touch re Sebring 2004, fuel cells, etc.

Dean S

[Cobra-R]

Originally posted by 95cobraR
I think I'll wait on my new cell. It will not save any money on yours and my race budget is already shot.

And where is Mr. Moderator to help us out here??:flush: :zz: :zz: I noticed he won "best moderator". Maybe he is collecting his award?


Just had the fuel cell out of my 95 and from what I could see of the bladder it looked good, as well as the foam. I put it back in and will hope for the best.

Still trying to figure out what to do with my car, either put it on a diet or switch over to a different car and sacrifice that? Have a friend that might have a line on a 95 V6 that may become my sacrificial lamb. ;)

Brian

[mustangmad]

Brian, glad to hear your fuel cell is good. The bladder isn't cracked or dried-out looking? Great new for you! How many miles are on your car now? As I recall, Dean bought the car with very few miles.

My R has about 24K on it and approx 12 pro races plus all the practice and qualifying miles. But in reality, most of the mileage was done on the highway. I'm sure many of you have done more than a dozen track events with your R's. Wonder why my fuel cell was in such bad shape? Hmmmmmm!

Fuel Safe is replacing my bladder at dealer cost. Still pricey but the best deal yet. And I should be up and running in a couple of weeks.

Now, any suggestions on a fuel pump? Ford? Aftermarket?

Dean S

[Cobra-R]

Originally posted by mustangmad
Brian, glad to hear your fuel cell is good. The bladder isn't cracked or dried-out looking? Great new for you! How many miles are on your car now? As I recall, Dean bought the car with very few miles.

My R has about 24K on it and approx 12 pro races plus all the practice and qualifying miles. But in reality, most of the mileage was done on the highway. I'm sure many of you have done more than a dozen track events with your R's. Wonder why my fuel cell was in such bad shape? Hmmmmmm!

Fuel Safe is replacing my bladder at dealer cost. Still pricey but the best deal yet. And I should be up and running in a couple of weeks.

Now, any suggestions on a fuel pump? Ford? Aftermarket?

Dean S

Dean,
I really didn't look it over that well, but I didn't see anything that even remotely looked like a crack. My car has 5800 miles and except for a few "brake bedding" miles it has been all track miles since I got it last year from Dean with 3000 or so miles on it. I believe most of the first 3000 miles that dean had it were track miles as well, but I cannot be more specific than that.

I have a 255lph fuel pump in my car, but dean installed it so he would have to let us know what brand it is, if he remembers. All I can say about it is that it works. ;) I have had alot of vapor lock problems (as well as dean) and I believe he changed the fuel pump hoping it would help cure the problem, it didn't work as far as I am concerned.

Brian

[mustangmad]

The vapor lock or fuel starvation was(is) a common problem with the 95 R. I remember reading a first test in Mustang Monthly in 1995. They had to keep the cell close to full all the time or the car would starve. And I have talked to a couple of other R owners who question their fuel capacity as they run out at about half tank. I've never had that problem (knock on wood).

Steeda did all the prep work on my car in 1995-96. But I didn't see anything unusual in the routing of the fuel lines or breather. I have driven the car with the gas guage at "way low" and only been able to put 15 or 16 gals. in to full. Do you have a fuel pressure guage? Or an adjustable fuel pres regulator? Maybe there is a wrinkle or pocket in the bladder right under the fuel pump screen. Or maybe the ball check-valves are hindered in some way and limit the amount of fuel allowed into the fuel pick-up area of the bladder.

Just my 2 pennies.

On another subject, I noticed Phil said our 351's have a flat tappet cam. Is this true? Never heard that before. I always assumed it used a roller car like the 5.0. Hmmm.

Dean S

[Cobra-R]

Originally posted by mustangmad
The vapor lock or fuel starvation was(is) a common problem with the 95 R. I remember reading a first test in Mustang Monthly in 1995. They had to keep the cell close to full all the time or the car would starve. And I have talked to a couple of other R owners who question their fuel capacity as they run out at about half tank. I've never had that problem (knock on wood).

Steeda did all the prep work on my car in 1995-96. But I didn't see anything unusual in the routing of the fuel lines or breather. I have driven the car with the gas guage at "way low" and only been able to put 15 or 16 gals. in to full. Do you have a fuel pressure guage? Or an adjustable fuel pres regulator? Maybe there is a wrinkle or pocket in the bladder right under the fuel pump screen. Or maybe the ball check-valves are hindered in some way and limit the amount of fuel allowed into the fuel pick-up area of the bladder.

Just my 2 pennies.

On another subject, I noticed Phil said our 351's have a flat tappet cam. Is this true? Never heard that before. I always assumed it used a roller car like the 5.0. Hmmm.

Dean S

Like I said I just had the fuel cell out and couldn't find anything that could be causing the problem. I do not have a fuel pressure guage, although I have screwed one in the fuel rail and it always matches up with what my dads 95R has. The funny thing is the car will run fine with 100+ octane fuel, run lower than that and when it gets hot I start to loose power.
My next step is to run the exhaust out the side, I am running dumps now.

[mustangmad]

Ordered the new bladder from Fuel Safe and it comes with new foam, fittings, etc. So no "bad foam" worries in the future.

An interesting note, if you go to their site it says our fuel bladders have a 10 year warranty! When I brought this up to the phone rep at Fuel Safe he said it's a pro-rated warranty but in consideration of the condition of my cell they replaced it at "dealer cost". $850. Still expensive but better than the original or any other quote.

So in a few days I'll get it all back together with a new pump, all repainted nice and semi-gloss black. Now I'm worried that I'll have the fuel pickup trubls that a lot of you guys have had! It's always something.

Thanks for your help all.
Dean S

[mustangmad]

Brian,

Just a thought about your hot power loss, could it be your ignition coil flaking-out with the high under hood temps?

Another 2 cents worth.

Dean S

[Cobra-R]

Originally posted by mustangmad
Brian,

Just a thought about your hot power loss, could it be your ignition coil flaking-out with the high under hood temps?

Another 2 cents worth.

Dean S

Good idea, but would the grade of fuel influence that?

[mustangmad]

You know, I am not sure. There is something about higher octane fuels being harder to ignite under pressure? Isn't that how/why High test prevents the dreaded "knock" or ping?

Maybe that is the problem, with regular premium gas and the high temps, the engine is actually detonating (or pinging) thus the power loss. With the dumps on the exhaust, you can't hear it. 100 octane fuel, no ping, no power loss. Hmmm.


Don't know but it's a good question for one of our engineers out there!

Dean S

[Cobra-R]

Originally posted by mustangmad
You know, I am not sure. There is something about higher octane fuels being harder to ignite under pressure? Isn't that how/why High test prevents the dreaded "knock" or ping?

Maybe that is the problem, with regular premium gas and the high temps, the engine is actually detonating (or pinging) thus the power loss. With the dumps on the exhaust, you can't hear it. 100 octane fuel, no ping, no power loss. Hmmm.


Don't know but it's a good question for one of our engineers out there!

Dean S

I assumed that the better fuel has a higher vapor temperature point? (ie: boils at a higher temperature) You could be right though, I just don't know.

Brian

[95cobraR]

Originally posted by mustangmad
The vapor lock or fuel starvation was(is) a common problem with the 95 R.


On another subject, I noticed Phil said our 351's have a flat tappet cam. Is this true? Never heard that before. I always assumed it used a roller car like the 5.0. Hmmm.

Dean S

I just caught back up with ya'll.
Dean, it is a flat tappet motor. It came with the 351 marine motor which had the flat tappets (not sure why they didn't use the Lightning motor?).

I don't have the fuel starvation problem (so far). I'd go with the side exit exhaust first. With the cooling of the radiator/oil cooler and the hot air exit of the hood, I wouldn't think the problem is vapor lock?? I also remember reading of some fuel problems on the prototypes but don't remember the fix. The bladder/check valves/fuel pump you mentioned could all be the cause. But, you checked 'em all. Why not swap coils as Dean said? I don't know how many times I've tried complex fixes when it was something simple. The fuel points back to the exhaust.

I changed fuel filters and cut up the filter. I didn't see any problems. Maybe the FL heat and race history caused your problem? Did you re-install a new 120 pump?

Brian, I saw you are re-doing the car with MM. Got a post or link on your thoughts? I'm 95% sure that I am building a 95R clone out of my 94 car and keep the 95R mostly stock. I need all the help I can get on the project.

Happy New year to all!
Doc J.