4, 5 or 6 point harness? [Archive]

2KWhiteSnake

05-31-2003, 11:45 AM

After haven't spent many hours reading and on the phone with a number of people, I'm still trying to decide which type of harness I should go with. Read a lot on this thread. http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=9431&highlight=harness Anyone familiar with the "under the leg" 6 point hookup?

My 4 point cage is going in next Sunday, courtesy of Tom Lewis. I wanted to have my harnesses with me when I went, but here lies the debate on 4, 5 or 6 point. I do want to mention, I will be using STOCK seats on the setup. I do plan to upgrade to a better seat later. After speaking at length with a Schroth distributor yesterday(who also races Honda Challenge), we concluded that a 4 point was what I needed. I was told that the 5 or 6 point wouldn't really help at all with my stock seating because of the cushioned front. I'm still trying to understand how it could hurt to have the 5th or 6th anti-sub belt.
Schroth has what is called the "ASM" system on their 4 points. Simply put, it is a part of the shoulder strap that is doubled over and stitched. In a very hard impact, this part would tear and allow the torso to rotate and accelerate forward a split second before the lap belt, in turn, it is supposed to keep you from submarining. There is more info on it at this link. http://www.schroth.com/produkte/rennsport/pdf/Schroth_Racing_6_11_Druck.pdf The belt I'm looking at is the Profi II. It is upgradeable to the 5 or 6 point if I would need to do so in the future.

What are your opinions on harnesses? I'd like to hear from some people who have possibly had some major impacts with their particular setup, etc.

Thanks,
Craig

STU

05-31-2003, 08:27 PM

This is just my opinion....

Forget the Scroth and get a good 6 point harness. If your torso is rotating then I don't believe you are being held in place firmly enough. You want to be held in place, away from the steering wheel, contact with roll bar etc. Let the car do it's job of absorbing the energy. I punched a cement wall head on at 80 using a Simpson 6 point and walked away with out even a bruise. Never touched the air bag when it deployed.

My 2 cents worth.

johnbasf

05-31-2003, 09:27 PM

Did you have the stock seats Dave?

STU

05-31-2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by johnbasf
Did you have the stock seats Dave?

Yes I did John. I used the Simpson cam lock. Sub went down each side of the seat to the front seat bolts. Not proper I know, but it kept the lap belt very low on my hips. Since I'm not a skinny guy it locked me in pretty well. In my instance it worked perfect.

Here is a memory refresher

http://cobrapages.com/wrecked4.jpg

johnbasf

05-31-2003, 10:01 PM

Originally posted by STU
Yes I did John. I used the Simpson cam lock. Sub went down each side of the seat to the front seat bolts. Not proper I know, but it kept the lap belt very low on my hips. Since I'm not a skinny guy it locked me in pretty well. In my instance it worked perfect.

I had told Craig that I hoped that you would jump in here, thanks

STU

05-31-2003, 10:06 PM

P. S. If all stays well I plan on driving a track day at Gingerman in September this year. :p

2KWhiteSnake

05-31-2003, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by STU
Yes I did John. I used the Simpson cam lock. Sub went down each side of the seat to the front seat bolts. Not proper I know, but it kept the lap belt very low on my hips. Since I'm not a skinny guy it locked me in pretty well. In my instance it worked perfect.

So, you're saying the 6pt ran under your legs and attached to the front seat bolts? Or did it attach to the lap belt pickups?

Thanks!

Craig

STU

05-31-2003, 10:19 PM

Yes, I attached mine to the front seat bolts.

Your next safety item should be a good seat so the sub belt will come up through the seat and the belt would attach to the floor behind you.

But I understand budgets and getting started.

redsnake99

06-01-2003, 11:37 AM

I've been very pleased with my 5-point Simpson setup, still with the stock seats. Some sanctioning bodies (NASA, etc) may require at least 5-point belts on their track events. But, base your decision on what you want to do with the car and what the owners of the tracks & strips require. If there's any question in yor mind, a few more dollars for an extra point of hookup are well worth it, like insurance for events we Cobra drivers like to participate in.

http://www.svtcobraclub.com/members/stanfield.htm

Most recent change in belts was to have the submarine belt bolted through to a plate under the floor, in center of the front seats. An instructor (Shugg) said he was not happy with my bolting that one belt to one of the seat bolts.

;)

STU

06-01-2003, 12:36 PM

Don't know if these rules are still in place but If I remember right, some drivers schools did not allow the use of the Scroth belts. I think Car Guys made you use the stock belts instead.

kevin

06-01-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by STU
P. S. If all stays well I plan on driving a track day at Gingerman in September this year. :p

YEA HAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW :thumbsup:

2KWhiteSnake

06-01-2003, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by STU
Don't know if these rules are still in place but If I remember right, some drivers schools did not allow the use of the Scroth belts. I think Car Guys made you use the stock belts instead.

Why would Schroth not be allowed? Their 3 inch belts are SFI approved?

Craig

STU

06-01-2003, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by 2KWhiteSnake
Why would Schroth not be allowed? Their 3 inch belts are SFI approved?

Craig

Because of not having a sub belt with the harness. Maybe things have changed now. That was a couple years back.

STU

06-01-2003, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by kevin
YEA HAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW :thumbsup:

I don't have the funds to get back in it like I was yet, but you guys are killing me! I gotta do a day before I explode. :eek:

johnbasf

06-01-2003, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by STU
P. S. If all stays well I plan on driving a track day at Gingerman in September this year. :p

Back in the saddle, Great news. Gingerman is a great track to get back in it.

justagt

06-02-2003, 11:01 AM

Craig,
So it like Stu. Forget a 4 point. I use a 6 pt. now, but used a 5 point with stock seats in my '94 for a while. IMHO, you REALLY need a sub belt. If not , there is nothing to keep you from sliding under the harness if you hit something.

svt_coupe

06-02-2003, 04:20 PM

Yeah - IMHO, go with a 5+ point (for stock seats, it's much easier to mount a 5 point). I will not use a 4 point harness. I would rather use a 3 point than a 4 point, and obviously use a 5 or 6 point if I had the choice.

I know the Schroth is a good design, but I never felt comfortable in one. I could never get the lap belts to sit as low as I'd like. As soon as you tighten the shoulder belts, the lap belt would begin to raise upward, moving off your pelvis. You want the lap belts to stay on your pelvis, which is a very strong part of your lower body. Like Dave said too, you MUST use the sub belt with a system designed for a sub (i.e. a 5 or 6 point harness). Otherwise, I'd rather run the stock 3 point.

6 vs. 5 point. I run a 6 point. However, in a sedan where you are sitting upright (near 90 degrees with a good seat), all that is needed is a 5 point. It's only function is to prevent the lap belt from lifting upwards, off your pelvis, and causing you to slide underneath. In a formula car where you are reclined a good bit, I believe that is where the 6 point is needed, as the 2 sub belts have more work to do. They actually prevent you from shifting forward (subbing) and take a considerable amount of g-load. I use a 6 point because it's a little more comfortable (to me) and I have a racing seat.

The reason for mounting a sub belt REARWARD of the driver (I have mine mounted to the stock REAR seat bolt location with G8 bolts) - in a crash, you move forward. If the sub is mounted going forward, the sub will flex (it's only webbing) and cause slack to develop, which supposedly can lead to you subbing anyway. Mounting it down and rearward, as your body shifts forward, the sub belt only gets tighter, holding the lap belt where it should be - on your pelvis.

Also, remember that safety equipment is only as good as it's weakest link i.e. install it properly and do your homework on it.

2KWhiteSnake

06-02-2003, 10:03 PM

Thanks for the responses. If you wouldn't recommend Schroth, then give me a few to recommend. I've seen the 6 pt Simpson's, but not many other brands that I'd know. I do want a camlock.

BTW....Shugg, we're going to Victory Lane Karting Thursday night after work to play around a little bit. We should be there about 7:30 if you feel like stopping by for some "lap time". Ron Hale will be working there that night.

justagt

06-03-2003, 10:44 AM

what, no love for me, craig? See if I ever show up and eat free steak again. :D

2KWhiteSnake

06-03-2003, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by justagt
what, no love for me, craig? See if I ever show up and eat free steak again. :D

My apologies man! I don't know why I kept thinking you were from up around Greensboro. Bring it man! We'd love to have you. The more people we can get...the better. Ron says it's pretty much dead up til 8PM every night, so we plan on trying to be there before 7:30. :thumbsup:

Craig

svt_coupe

06-03-2003, 12:50 PM

Hmmm.... I may have to show up at this and slap smiley down. He beat me last time, but I still contend that was because he sabotaged my cart. :D I want revenge!!!!

7:30 huh? Let's do it Will.

OK - regarding the belts. PERSONALLY (i.e. read all of this as my opinion), I like the Sabelt's (also Sparco's - they're made by Sabelt) cam mechanism more than the Simpsons. But there are a lot of very happy Simpson customers out there. The webbing on the higher-end belts (the good Simpson's included) is stiffer, and seems to resist "twisting" within the sliders/adjustment mechanisms better. Yes, they are more expensive, but they are nice. Willens Williams Willans?? makes a good belt too.

Now, Jason got some belts for his car at a GREAT price and the quality is great. It's the Crow belts. They are not quite as pimpy as the Sabetls, but they are a great system. I think he got his from MM but I'm not sure. Come to think of it, Don got his too from them. They come with all of the necessary mounting hardware if you ask them for it. Definitely a great set of belts.

Basically, as with all safety equipment, get the best stuff you can afford. ANY harness is better than no harness. ANY harness is only as good as it's weakest point - i.e. mount it correctly. I think this goes without saying, but get the kind that wrap around your roll cage's harness bar. Mounting them way back to the rear seatbelt mounts (been there, done that) is not safe apparently...

2KWhiteSnake

06-03-2003, 02:55 PM

Those Crow belts look fine. Thanks for pointing me to them. About $80 cheaper than some of the other more "popular" brands too. I'll have the car with me Thursday, so maybe you can explain a few things if you make it to VLK.

Yeah Will.....Get in gear.......hope to see you both there. Beware of my wife though. She is VERY competitive.

Craig:bounce:

flynfink

06-03-2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by 2KWhiteSnake
Thanks for the responses. If you wouldn't recommend Schroth, then give me a few to recommend. I've seen the 6 pt Simpson's, but not many other brands that I'd know. I do want a camlock.

BTW....Shugg, we're going to Victory Lane Karting Thursday night after work to play around a little bit. We should be there about 7:30 if you feel like stopping by for some "lap time". Ron Hale will be working there that night.

You gotta let me know when you are coming up this way dude...I'm gonna see if I can make it.

BTW, Shugg is right 6 pt. is what I always used on my formula cars, on my sedans we always ran 5 pts. and the mount for the anti-sub was under my seat, under my butt.

Hey where were you guys on Drag Day??

justagt

06-03-2003, 04:11 PM

It is WILLANS , goober, WILLANS. I use them because they have my name on them. That way I can't loose them. :D

Let's do that on Thursday. Are you doing the 2-hour armband deal? Let me know.
B - call me.

oh, yeah, what Bryan said about the belts. I like the Willans a lot becuase they are a stiffer belt than others I have used and don't seem to work loose in a session. I also have some Simpsons that I like too. Some like a cam-lock and I like the duckbill, BUT if you get them, make sure there is a velcro tab to help hold the latch down.

word out, over.

2KWhiteSnake

06-03-2003, 04:26 PM

Jeff! You come too(and your son), and any other people in the area that you might now. I've never been to VLK, so it should be fun. We kept hearing about it, so I got a few friends and my wife interested in going so we decided to run up there after work Thursday.

On drag day.....well, you know the story, I wimped out on the weather, and got busy that week and didn't get my drag radials put on, so I got some things done in the yard here instead. Glad to see you guys had a good time.

*I'm selling the Nitto drag radials if anyone is interested (245/45/17). They've only got the mileage on them from driving to/from Jackson in March. No passes or burnouts done on them at all.

Craig

Andy M

06-03-2003, 04:28 PM

I installed the SABELT 5 point harnesses in my R when I did the roll cage last summer, and I love 'em. They are the camlock model. Bought them from Racers Wholesale.

SIUNARA

06-03-2003, 04:34 PM

Shugg is correct, both Jason and myself have the Crow harnesses from MM. A very nice harness for the money ($150 each)! :)

When are you gutting that car Craig? ;) :thumbsup:

2KWhiteSnake

06-03-2003, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by SIUNARA
Shugg is correct, both Jason and myself have the Crow harnesses from MM. A very nice harness for the money ($150 each)! :)

When are you gutting that car Craig? ;) :thumbsup:

Not gutting it, but Tom is putting in the cage Sunday. :)

justagt

06-03-2003, 04:48 PM

Mark this day down. Craig said "Not gutting it".

yeah , ok, you keep thinking that and we won't say "I told you so" when you do!!!! Craig, Craig, silly Craig....... Don't you know by now how this works!:p

2KWhiteSnake

06-03-2003, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by justagt
Mark this day down. Craig said "Not gutting it".

yeah , ok, you keep thinking that and we won't say "I told you so" when you do!!!! Craig, Craig, silly Craig....... Don't you know by now how this works!:p

HAHAHAH!!! :rotf:

I think I'm going to delete the back seat of course, but that's about it for now. I'll probably end up eating those words.:)

johnbasf

06-03-2003, 06:21 PM

SIUNARA

06-03-2003, 09:00 PM

Craig,

Tell me this...other than using the back seat (which you are deleting) and rear seatbelts (can't use them without a back seat)...what else back there is useful...that's right...NOTHING!!! Gut it now and save yourself the work later!!!! ;) ;) :thumbsup:

Come on, give in to the voices in your head that are telling you to gut it...and the peer pressure too!! It sounds BADA$$ with nothing back there...just the sound of the V-8 rumbling. I love it so much I cut the ghetto pipes (as John called them) off and am now running dumps...and let's just say the neighbors aren't too happy about it. Come on Craig, give in to the sickness!!! :D :D

flynfink

06-03-2003, 09:47 PM

Oh, feel the peer pressure... :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack:

2KWhiteSnake

06-04-2003, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by flynfink
Oh, feel the peer pressure... :smack: :smack: :smack: :smack:

No pressure! Heheheh......;)

Shugg, make sure you ask Jason about tomorrow. I haven't seen him around lately.

Craig

svt_coupe

06-04-2003, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by 2KWhiteSnake
Shugg, make sure you ask Jason about tomorrow. I haven't seen him around lately.

Jay is in a training session until Friday. He's out in St. Louis figuring out how to rent cars better. Otherwise, you could guarantee I'd be draggin his arse out to Vlick (VLK).

Gut the car... gut the car...

2KWhiteSnake

06-04-2003, 01:17 PM

Originally posted by svt_coupe
Jay is in a training session until Friday. He's out in St. Louis figuring out how to rent cars better. Otherwise, you could guarantee I'd be draggin his arse out to Vlick (VLK).

Gut the car... gut the car...

Sounds like a subliminal message in an Ozzy album....hehehe.

justagt

06-04-2003, 03:34 PM

We all know how this 'I don't plan on gutting it' thing works out, Craig!!

Is it still 7ish tomorrow at VLK?

351coupe

06-04-2003, 03:35 PM

Hey Bryan and Will...are the Shelby boys invited to VLK tomoorow night too?

Trevor

2KWhiteSnake

06-04-2003, 04:17 PM

Yeah, between 7 and 7:30. Even Shelby boys are invited too! ;)

Craig

bolt-on

06-04-2003, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by 2KWhiteSnake
Not gutting it, but Tom is putting in the cage Sunday. :)

Craig,
You don't seem to be getting much support, so I'll step in and take some of the fire. I am currently putting in a DOM tubing 4-point roll-bar. The interior panels will go back in with .090 aluminum firewall and shelf replacing the rear seat. I did get some inside rear quarter panels from a wrecked 1995 V6 Mustang, so I did not have to cut holes in the originals for the roll-bar supports.

Larry

SIUNARA

06-04-2003, 10:36 PM

Hey Larry, you know what's better than gutting a Mustang? Gutting TWO at the same time...bring your car on down with Craig and we'll help both of you out!!! ;) ;) :thumbsup:

Maybe I'll head down to Tom's before Craig, hide in the bushes, and take parts off of his car when he's not looking!! :thumbsup: ;)

Beware of the dog Craig...he's been known to make grown men cry...with laughter that is...:D

2KWhiteSnake

06-04-2003, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by SIUNARA
Hey Larry, you know what's better than gutting a Mustang? Gutting TWO at the same time...bring your car on down with Craig and we'll help both of you out!!! ;) ;) :thumbsup:

Maybe I'll head down to Tom's before Craig, hide in the bushes, and take parts off of his car when he's not looking!! :thumbsup: ;)

Beware of the dog Craig...he's been known to make grown men cry...with laughter that is...:D

Hahahah...comon down!

flynfink

06-05-2003, 06:36 AM

Hey Guys, not sure if I'll make it to VLK tonight. Jay has college orientation and I thought we be done at 5 or 6, but it looks like there's something in the evening. Craig, I'll give ya a shout on the mobile either way.

If I don't make it, ya'll have fun..but not too much.

Mystic_Cobra

06-05-2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by svt_coupe
6 vs. 5 point. I run a 6 point. However, in a sedan where you are sitting upright (near 90 degrees with a good seat), all that is needed is a 5 point. It's only function is to prevent the lap belt from lifting upwards, off your pelvis, and causing you to slide underneath. In a formula car where you are reclined a good bit, I believe that is where the 6 point is needed, as the 2 sub belts have more work to do. They actually prevent you from shifting forward (subbing) and take a considerable amount of g-load. I use a 6 point because it's a little more comfortable (to me) and I have a racing seat.

After reading Bryan's post, I feel much better about the crotch straps. I was thinking the fellas would be in danger with a 5 pt, but I'm now realizing that the crotch strap holds the lap belt down which keeps your pelvis in the seat. So the fellas don't have to fear the crotch strap(s). ;)

I just ordered the Simpson shoulder harnesses and what I think is going to be two crotch straps to go with my existing lap belts (2+2+2=6pt). I have a 4-pt roll bar and will be using stock seats for now. I also ordered the floor kits which are eye bolts with washers and bolts. I'm gonna need some pointers in placing the crotch strap mounts. Anyone, anyone??
I think wrapping the belts around the bar should be pretty easy.

2KWhiteSnake

06-05-2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by flynfink
Hey Guys, not sure if I'll make it to VLK tonight. Jay has college orientation and I thought we be done at 5 or 6, but it looks like there's something in the evening. Craig, I'll give ya a shout on the mobile either way.

If I don't make it, ya'll have fun..but not too much.

Hope you can still make it. Of course, getting the fella ready for school is more important. We'll probably be there until 10, so if you're in the area, drop by.

Craig