.."STREET KILLS".....

[GUMBALL]

I have been reading posts on this site for several months now, and I see something that bothers me.

I see posts like..."I was racing this guy, and I had a car length on him before we had to brake for a red light".....

I have to ask if they know the definition of a few phrases....like:
"reckless driving".....or.."criminal negligence"...or the big one..."vehicular manslaughter"......????

I know the thrill of "standing on it" - I drove a variety of racecars for over 20 years, but I have crashed a few of them too.....and I know what it is to go REALLY fast - I drove a GTP car in the Daytona 24 in '84 which had a top speed of over 210 mph, and did it for 24 hours !

My point is this - THERE IS A TIME AND PLACE.............................on streets or highways, Aunt Martha is not expecting you at a closing rate of 60+mph...and Sister Suzie, while concentrating on her cell phone conversation, WILL NOT see you coming (even if she did look), and WILL pull out in front of you......

Then the laws of physics WILL jump up and bite you on the knee......
60 mph=88 feet per second, and 120 mph=176 fps...etc, etc
and "a body in motion tends to stay in motion".......

In this respect, the street is the same as the race track, where everything is just FINE - until someone makes that TINY mistake,
then you will realise (in .02 seconds) that:
-by the time you react, you have already run out of room.....
-your car does not deccelerate as fast as it accelerates.....
-there is no way to get around the car ahead.....
-when you hit him, the guy behind will hit you.....
-a crash REALLY hurts.......:(

And when it is all over, other things come to mind:
-the investigating officer does NOT have a sense of humor.....
-you do not know a bail bondsman.....yet.....
-you do not know a good lawyer.....yet.....
-you will be shocked at his fee to represent you.....
-your insurance might not cover this......:eek:

I will probably receive a lot of flack for this, but those of you who have read my posts in the past, have seen that most of my replies are regarding SAFETY, and with my experience, it would be wrong for me to sit here and say nothing. Also, in my younger (and DUMBER!) days, I have street raced too, so with the perspective of someone who HAS "been there-done that" I was LUCKY that no one was injured......
and yes IT WAS dumb then, and it IS DUMB NOW....!!!!

[Hazman]

I agree completely Gumball. I have done my share of dumb things and at an age where I should know better. However lately I have discovered the fun of running at the track and it is great. Yeah pushing it can be fun up a mountain road but learning how too and really driving your Cobra on an open track is infinitely better. So now when I get the challenge at the light I tell em to meet me at the track!! :thumbsup:

[cobrabitn]

Gumball,

That's why we have track events at the SCMC.... so tell me, how many SCMC track events have you been to? :D

[GUMBALL]

cobrabitn:

This year, I have instructed at 2 SCMC events, plus 8 events for other clubs.;)

[cobrabitn]

EXCELLENT! :hail: :clapping:

Which two did you go to? Not sure if I ever met you or not? :thumbsup: :rotf:

[GUMBALL]

To be honest, I forget which clubs are which - in addition to Mustang clubs, I also instruct at Porsche, BMW, and Corvette club events. This summer I have done events at: IRP, Putnam Park, Mid-Ohio, Gingerman, and Grattan. I don't think we've met, I would remember your car.:D

[cobrabitn]

And here I was thinking I didn't know who you were and you threw me a curve ball. You may have done our Gingerman event if you went last week but I'm pretty sure that would have been the only SCMC event you did. Simply because I don't remember meeting anyone from Indianapolis, IN. I would remember such things believe me... :rotf:

Mix clubs up?? I'm not sure how I should take that? :doubt:

[Yeller']

Like everything, it depends on the situation.

Two 18 year old ricers racing in mid-day traffic down a busy road is stupid.

However... Hazman and I (just to use a theoretical example), on a straight, deserted country road at 1AM blasting from a stop to a 1/8th or 1/4 mile is another story. Still not 100% "Safety-Bob certified", no, but not the end of western civilization either.

I know Haz, and know that he can handle his car.
Haz knows me, and he knows that I can handle my car and ain't gonna ram him or do something stupid.

Is all street racing dangerous to a degree? Sure, but you can make it only slightly more dangerous than your morning commute or as dangerous as the Daytona 500 depending on the decisions you make. It's soooo not black and white.

Unfortunately, the "ricer kids" and import crowds have watched too many of those stupid movies and they are unable to make those correct decisions. It's like..."Duh, it's noon and traffic is everywhere...Time to race!"

Pick up a paper, they are the problem 99 times out of 100.

They have no respct for the cars, they have no respect for each other or pedestrians, they have no driving skills, they have no mechanical or automotive skills other than the latest bL!nG yO! Auto Zone part.

Blue collar guys and shadetree mechanics have been testing their hot rods for the past 60 years on Americas back roads, and only since the "Fast and Furious" mindset has taken hold has it become the epidemic problem some would have you believe it is now.

I'd be willing to bet for every 1 death attributed to drag racing there are 50 attributed to cellphones, eating and drinking, adjusting the radio, smacking of kids, smacking of spouses, lighting of cigars/cigarettes/joints/crack pipes, scratching of balls, picking of noses, and general head-in-assiosity.

But all those things are boring, street racing is exciting and hey! ...it just sounds edgy and dangerous. When was the last time you saw a headline that read "2 teens dead on I-40 in an apparent booger-picking incident"?

The problem is not the occasional street race with two grown men in high-performance cars... like everything else nowdays, the problem is the activity has been commercialized, taken over by morons, and sensationalized and exagerated by the media. 17 year old ricer punks with zero brains or driving skills granted aren't helping the situation.

95% of the problems would go away if the driving age was raised to 21 and liscensing tests were way more difficult. And the problem isn't really that they are street racing per-say... Hell, my wifes' Taurus is faster than most of their fartmobiles. The problem is, like seemingly everyone nowdays, they are morons and don't use their heads before they push the "go" pedal.

I'm not necessarily condoning "street racing" (as most people think of the term), but I'm not ready to condemn every guy in this country that has had a short "stop light blast" to the dungeons with the murderers and rapists either.

Also, not to accuse anyone of alterior motives, but I would like to know if GUMBALL would be in favor of getting rid of the "Kill Stories" forum on this website, seeing as how one might try and argue (weakly) that the forum promotes street racing.

There are already several other car sites that have done away with their kill forums due to the whining of the "take it to the trackers". I don't want to see that happen at SCMC, that's just political correct bullsh!t and I as well as I expect others would rather not have that rammed down our throats.

If one doesn't want to read about kills, one shouldn't clicky the linky to the kills forum.

Simple concept. No clicky = No Killy

Plus, let's get real. We didn't buy these 300-500 h.p. gas guzzling muscle cars to drive in the slow lane with our blinker on like Granny. We also didn't buy them to only set on a trailer en-route to the racetrack.

Yeller out and keepin' it real. :thumbsup:

[cobrabitn]

Sorry, I have to be politically correct Brett or I get either blasted by others or chastised for stating my true opinion.

I will say this .... I don't know of anyone who has never exceeded the speed limit. Even my significant other goes 5 mph over the limit and she has never gotten a ticket.

I'm not saying you shouldn't voice your opinion here, I'm saying just because you don't agree with someone, that doesn't mean you are 100% correct. I am not 100% correct all of the time, you aren't, and neither is the next guy.

While I don't agree 100% with what Gumball states, he makes a valid point. Of course, he cannot exempt himself from ever speeding on the hwy, as I would find that very difficult to believe.

On the other hand, although I agree with you Brett, remember... we can't say 100% that anyone who owns an import vehicle (politically correct term) is wreckless or unknowing. There are some SCCA guys we run with that own imports and they are aweome to watch.

I do hear you on the bling, bling though.... :rotf:

Let's just go have some safe fun! :thumbsup:

[RF Cobra]

Like everything, it depends on the situation.

Plus, let's get real. We didn't buy these 300-500 h.p. gas guzzling muscle cars to drive in the slow lane with our blinker on like Granny.

If my grandmother was still alive you would probably have a hard time keeping up close enough to keep the tail lights of her Caddy in view.:D Due to traffic laws any judge would tell you A) that is why you do not need the 300-500 hp car in the first place and/or B) that is what race tracks are for. Goes hand in hand with the old saying: two wrongs don't make a right. Just because you choose to race on a public road at 1 a.m. instead of during rush hour, that does not make it any more legal to do so. Yes, it may be "safer" but it is still illegal. I agree the stories can be interesting to read, but it still does not dismiss the simple truth that the activity is illegal. Whether or not I agree or disagree with street racing posts is of no consequence either since it does not change the legality issue.

Read on:

A big flaw is that most teens to mid-twenty year olds think they are invincible and know everything. So when they see street racing posts, movies, etc. they think they can do it too and get away with it. After seeing/reading enough of it they will typically act on it (garbage in = garbage out principle). Trouble is they wont not click on the link, they are not smart enough to know better. Problem is, like you stated, they do not think about when and where they do it.

Regarding car club boards banning street racing posts:

Most clubs have deleted any street racing related posts or sections for one very important reason. Not because it is illegal, even though it is. It is because in this politically correct age no one is responsible for their own actions. So guess what, little 17 yr old Johnny goes out and wraps himself and his car around a tree but the story does not end there. Johnny's parents know he is perfect and would never street race and one day while going through his belongings they stumble across the car club website they knew he frequented and may have been a member of. While going through the site they find posts about street racing, some by Johnny, some by others. The specifics are unimportant, but now they know it was not Johnny's fault, but these other people who "forced" him into the situation. Next thing the site owner knows is that he is getting hounded by lawyers (who by the way only collect payment if they win, so they are going to be sure they win) and the club is suddenly facing a high priced lawsuit which would most likely put the club under just in trying to pay legal fees to defend itself. The only other option would be to settle, which could also bankrupt the club. Not to mention, membership records could be obtained, and additional lawsuits filed against every person posting street racing stories on the site.

It is sad, but true. I used to audit the legal billings in the insurance group of attorneys for the largest law firm in NC when I worked for them and you would be amazed and shocked by the lawsuits that are filed. An illustration closer to home is that if you own your own home and someone is injured on your property, you can be held legally liable even if you were not present at the time the injury took place even if the injury was due to the injured person's own negligence/carelessness. There are even cases where burglars sued homeowners and won when they were injured while trying to break into the house.

Tony puts himself at risk simply by allowing any street racing related post on this site. Furthermore, any post he makes that does not outright condemn doing something posted on this site that is against the law opens him up to even more potential liability. I'm not saying I'm perfect either, I've gotten a speeding ticket in our Taurus of all things.:( And yes, it is very tempting having all that power available almost instantly in the Cobra and there are times when the urge can be very great to make use of it. Sometimes we give into that urge and other times we know that just because the capability is there, that does not mean that it is justified or right to use it. I am just trying to point out that Tony is in a position of responsibility and must act accordingly to protect both the club and himself regardless of his personal feelings. Plus, due to all of the problems as stated in your post by listing the problems with street racing, and to be non-politically correct, saying no to it is the right thing to do. I am not demanding this section be removed, but think taht at the very least some sort of legal disclaimer about the inherent dangers and legal issues regarding street racing should probably be posted by the SCMC at the top of the section or in a very visible location for the club's own protection.

I am not questioning you or anyone else with regard to their driving ability. Odds are probably that you could street race everyday of your life and never get involved in an accident. Whether or not you do so is your choice. I am simply speaking to the legal issues.

Just something to think about.:)

[cobrabitn]

Excellent thoughts Scott. Now give us a legal disclaimer for this section...

[Yeller']

:thumbsup: Excellent thoughts Scott. Now give us a legal disclaimer for this section

Good idea, as Scott said it's absolutely sad and pathetic that that's what our legal system has turned into... but nonetheless good idea.

And I know I'm not 100% correct, I was just posting my opinion and response to GUMBALLS initial post, the reader can agree with me, agree with parts of my post, or write me off as an idiot.

I just felt that the other side needed to be heard, after all... right or wrong, for the time being this IS a kills forum. And therefore black and white "IF YOU STREET RACE EVER, YOU ARE A COMPLETE MORON AND DESERVE THE ELECTRIC CHAIR" posts annoy the crap out of me, and certainly so in a kills forum.

To me it's like relaxing in a bar enjoying a cold one, and having someone come sit on the stool next to you and start explaining how you're wrong in having your beer. WTF?

And I know I'm not the only one on this (or other) websites that feels this way, I guess I'm just the only one stupid enough to say "Damn the PC... Full Speed ahead!" That PC mindset is choking this country of everything it once was and I hate it. It's destroying common sense.

As I said, not that I condone street racing in 90% of the situations one would find themselves in, and I sure don't want to be put in a position of defending the ricer "fast and furious" morons, as I honestly feel they are the problem 95% of the time. How it's relevant that there are "guys that use imports for SCCA" I'm not sure, those aren't the guys I'm talking about.

And I understand your position Tony, I honestly wasn't expecting a reply from you regarding my post and wouldn't blame you if you hadn't responded at all.

Legal or illegal, street racing is like everything else... all it takes is a few morons (with lawyers in tow) to exploit it, give it a black eye, and ruin it for everyone else.

I've said my peace, I'll shut up now.













probably... :doubt:

[cobrabitn]

I had some time to think about this and while RF Cobra makes some very valid points. I was told that anyone can sue anyone at any time for any reason and with that said, I'll say that's the reason the SCMC is a corporation. To protect the people that run the club under the law.

First, there is no way that anyone here can be blamed for the actions of someone who is in total control of their car and their actions. I haven't seen any "dare" posts. It would be like me sueing Brett because I was overweight. Brett told me how great it was to eat at fast food restaurants and pressured me into it (like anyone really could) and I ate all of the fast food I could, gained excessive weight, and now I want to sue him because my cholosterol level is too high. Think I would win? :rollseyes: The point is that you have to prove that the other party was totally negligent or was directly involved in the actual incident or lied about it.

The Kill forum can be for our drag racing events where someone wants to brag about how they got scorched at the track during our drag day event.

That's the reaon for getting rid of "frivilous" law suits. As for the property incident, it's not that way in SC. Believe me, I know from personal experience. When you get on someone's property and you get hurt, if you came on my property without invitation then you don't have a leg to stand on in SC for suing me because you got hurt. Again, it is the burden of the person to prove I was negligent and you had just cause to be on the property.

I guess we can go on and on about this, maybe some lawyer will jump in here? Bottom line for the record, I don't condone street racing, period. SCMC is not about street racing but about going to track and learning to handle your Cobra better in a safe controlled environment.

Brett, I posted in your defense and wasn't trying to correct you except not to classify 100% of a group, which you didn't. (You said 95%) :) I do agree with Gumball and that everyone should keep it off the street and on the track. Which I think for as small as the SCMC is, we do a pretty good job of having track events for education and fun.

This board is for education (which we are receiving right now), fun, and friendship, so if you have a personal experience you want to share with someone then I don't see the harm. Just don't post and peer pressure dares. :)

[Yeller']

Can I say..."I dare you to try and stop the whoopin' you're gonna get at the next 411 speedway autocross"?

just checking. :D ;)

[97whitevert]

Can I say..."I dare you to try and stop the whoopin' you're gonna get at the next 411 speedway autocross by everyone including the AARP taxi-sleds and the granny"?

just checking. :D ;)
why yes you can brett!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[RF Cobra]

Excellent thoughts Scott. Now give us a legal disclaimer for this section...
I'll add it to my to do list. :)

Note to self: keep away from the post reply button in the future. ;)

[cobrabitn]

Brett, you scare me. I'm almost believing we tend to think alike... :D

[RF Cobra]

I was just posting my opinion and response to GUMBALLS initial post, the reader can agree with me, agree with parts of my post, or write me off as an idiot.


Brett,

Do not take my post as going after you, that was not my intent and I do not think you are an idiot. I believe in common sense and personal accountability and responsibility, and I think you also feel the same way. The problem I have is with those in our society that feel nothing is ever their fault and they are always looking for a scapegoat. They are at the extreme end of the spectrum, and as you said, we should not "condemn every guy in this country that has had a short "stop light blast" to the dungeons with the murderers and rapists either." After all, if that were the case, I'd be put in that category too.

I plan on being a long time SCMC member (unless Tony kicks me out :eek: or SVT makes a killer Tbird that seats 4 so my wife will let me buy it :doubt: ) and I think the club should take steps to protect itself from those that have nothing better to do than twist the law to extremes and file crazy lawsuits etc. whether or not they have any real merit. As I said, keep the section, just add a disclaimer (which I think I evidently volunteered myself for but I am willing to take a shot at it).

Have you ever seen the police show where they are chasing the car in HEAVY traffic on the CA freeway? The cop deicides to force the situation by ramming the speeder, and while the commentator brags about how great a job the cop did you watch as the car spins out and totals two other innocent vehicles in the process endangering the lives of several people in the process. Smooth move by the cop.:doubt:

[Yeller']

why yes you can brett!!!

Oh no!...and Lisa comes out with the jab-jab.:eek:;)

And don't sweat it, it's no problem Scott. :)

If the end result of this wacky thread is that we get a legal disclaimer to further protect SCMC from the "blame someone else" crowd, I feel our discussion will not have been in vain.:thumbsup:

[GUMBALL]

RFCobra, cobrabitn, brett:

I can not disagree with many of the points you make - especially regarding accountability.....
Like I said, I have done dumb things too, and I have lost friends in "highway games".......
The biggest difference between myself and some other people ??
I survived my "learning process".......

which makes me either more capable or luckier
(I don't know which, maybe both).......

My main point for posting this, was to try to get people to THINK of the consequences of their actions...... BEFORE ........:thumbsup:

[kilroy]

~Also, in my younger (and DUMBER!) days, I have street raced too ~
...but did you win?:side:





















J/K, I couldn't resist... very valid points.

[Abneriel]

see sig :(

[GUMBALL]

Abneriel:

That looks frightening......

Sorry, but I have to ask, what happened?:eek:

....and was anyone hurt?

[stylin99]

I only read the first page due to time constraints, but Brett...man you are hilarious!! Very well written debate.

I run my own forum also that has a Kills section... in fact it's called Ricer Bashing/Kill Stories :D (www.ymrforums.com)

Anyway, with legal BS aside, I'd love to see a lawyer try to sue me for the site's content. Not only does negative publicity like that work in reverse (gives more attention usually), but it would be a great example of political red tape.

Brett said everything in common sense, the kiddies are the ones usually making the headlines in ricers. The Booger Picking stories I have yet to hear. :rotf:

You can't do everything in life by the book. That's not living. That's just abiding by a set of standards of which your life should follow. I'm an outside-of-the-box thinker, and enjoy doing something occassionally "Wrong". The statistics would show that street racing is not a leading cause of death if they presented them correctly. But they get manipulated to ...

"Street Racing is the #1 cause of death by teenagers from 17-20 who own foreign produced cars, have one parent, and listen to rap music". :rolleyes:


Oh and by the way Street Racing is safer if you go outside the 5 mile barrier around your house. Since most accidents happen with 5 miles, it only makes sense. :D :rolleyes:

[Abneriel]

Abneriel:

That looks frightening......

Sorry, but I have to ask, what happened?:eek:

....and was anyone hurt?
a girl had a broken foot in the other vehicle (mid 90's tercel) but that is all...other than that just cuts and bruises...that picture is testimony to what happens when stupidity and speed mix...

Years ago I was big into the street racing scene and built myself a sleeper out of a 95 GT. When I bought it, the car had TF heads and it was cammed...It also had headers and Edelbrock RPM Performer upper/lower intake manifolds and 24 lb injectors...strangely enough the original owner never added gears or a catback...I went ahead and added 3:73s along with a compucar nitrous kit and a few other goodies (flowmaster force IIs with a mac h pipe)...I raced all the time, almost every weekend I'd be up in Seattle joining the scene with about 50 other cars lining up. One day a 98 Cobra passed by and I took chase. He ended up flooring it down a two lane country road messing with me. He must've been stock because it wasn't hard to reel him in and I had to let off the gas continually to keep from hitting his rear during acceleration. On one roll I decided to pass him and unfortunately as I was passing him another car rounded the bend and we connected while I was going around 110ish and she was going 50 the other way. Needless to say the car rolled a lot. Now I am a convert to the track and don't street race anymore EVER!!!

[Yeller']

On one roll I decided to pass him and unfortunately as I was passing him another car rounded the bend and we connected while I was going around 110ish and she was going 50 the other way.

I don't wanna sound like an ass, but...

you tried to pass another car, in a blind turn, on an unfamiliar road, at 110 mph, in a car built for drag racing?

Now I am a convert to the track and don't street race anymore EVER!!!

I think that's probably a good idea.

[Abneriel]

I don't wanna sound like an ass, but...

you tried to pass another car, in a blind turn, on an unfamiliar road, at 110 mph, in a car built for drag racing?

sorry, it was late when I wrote and I was unclear. It wasn't a bend in the road...it was an area will a bunch of small hills one right after the other...Other than that it was very straight for the next couple of miles. I was very familiar with the road and it usually had very little traffic so after I went up two of the hills and didn't see anyone coming I decided to pass. I was very familiar with the road. The people I hit were actually girls and co-workers of mine on their way out to a rave. I sent them both teddy bears and an apology note and luckily they didn't sue. Yes it was stupid.

[GUMBALL]

Lucky......lucky.....lucky......


Thank-you for the reply Abneriel......
.....but that is the point I'm trying to make......

on a racetrack, there are fewer "surprises" that jump out at you.................

[SVTcobra04]

I hate country roads because of not being able to pass safely.I usaully dont go fast on em unless some @sshole is riding my tail with his brites on.but you are really lucky.Really all the street racing related deaths are caused by(in my opinion) fast and the furious and all the hype the media puts on it.Now Im not saying I dont occasionally drive fast, but theres a very big difference in going fast in a car that is meant for speed and one that is meant for getting grocerys.another thing is the driving expierence, ive had my fair share of car related disasters(well very close to it)and Im confident if the car started losing control I could keep it steady and not plow into a tele pole or worse.and really its just common sense.nothing anyone hasnt heard but just thought id put in my .02 cents.

[Abneriel]

Lucky......lucky.....lucky......


Thank-you for the reply Abneriel......
.....but that is the point I'm trying to make......

on a racetrack, there are fewer "surprises" that jump out at you.................
I'm in total agreement with you...just wish I didn't have to learn it the hard way.

[casey99COBRA]

this will never end will it? lol

[Yeller']

this will never end will it? lol

And another thing...
(just kidding) :D

[speederdoc]

Not really a kill, but I had a little run-in with a Ferrari tonight. A guy in a black 360 was in front of me, so I sped up to check out his ride, and then eased past him on the right. He still had paper plates on, so I assume he recently bought it. I guess he thought I wanted to race, or he just wanted to show off, because he sped up to go alongside of me, and then he punched it HARD. His front wheels almost left the ground, and his passenger's head snapped back against the seat.

I punched it a half-click later (luckily I was already in second gear), kept up with him but I slowed down because I was in the bumpy right lane and didn't want to eat it. I would have liked to have had a proper race with him, but unfortunately the conditions weren't right and we come up on some traffic ahead.

Sure was a beautiful car though. I'm still smiling about it. I think our cars as stock match up pretty well with that one, and mine won't be stock for long. :D

[RheacerDave]

I'm in East Tenn. Y'all don't have deer up there?
No less a driver than Brian Redman can tell you about hitting a cat on the back straight at Road Atlanta at speed. :eek:
Problem is, when something goes bad on the street, everyone pays one way or the other.
Insurance rates go up (for everyone), you have to take off work to go to court, you have to take off to go to the funeral, unless it's yours, then it's ok.
But then someone else has to make arrangements, pay off the bills, cut off the phone, and feed the darn dog.
Besides, it SOOO much more fun to run 20-30 minutes on the track and REALLY own someone than maybe 5-10 seconds on the street.
For all the bucks we have in these cars, spend a couple of hundred more and take it to the track.
My $.02:thumbsup: