Brake Rotors - Page 2

fastoldman · 11-20-2002, 01:14 PM

Then we are in agreement,as those are just some of the criteria, since we both are discussing driver differences can affect pad life, etc. This is only one area a driver can improve,and obviously you have some skill and one can not give a generic answer that will satisfy all drivers --- just giving some areas to ponder and nothing more.

**cobrabitn** · 11-20-2002, 01:17 PM

You tell them Bill!

I wish you were coming to our driving school in the Spring. I really learned a lot from you and I am sure others will too. Out of all the events I have been to, I learned more from you in one session then I did in three years.

Besides, you're a nice guy too!

b_tone · 11-20-2002, 01:37 PM

I have run near 1500 laps at Road America and I would simply be amazed that a stock viper could turn a 2:34 on stock tires. I have driven with vipers there and if you look at the results from this years event at Road America the fastest stock viper there was running right around 3 minutes.

look here for the results

I did find your results here and it looks like you ran Bill Pemberton 2:37.984.

That is fast at road america I will give you that. Is that a flying lap? With the ford group we get timed from standing start so it's a bit different. One last note, it seems to me that you really were hard on pads if you burned a set up in 30 minutes unless they were stock pads. If the were a good performance/race pad then you did something strange with the middle pedal.

Brian

sn8kbit · 11-20-2002, 04:12 PM

well, i'm not saying one is better than the other. maybe i worded it wrong. there are some benefits however to the eradispeed (solid) than the stock brembo. while i agree proper cooling and driving style do affect braking, i think that rotor design can also affect how the rotor cools. my understanding of braking (and i might be wrong, please correct me if i am) depends on how well the rotor absorbs, then dissipates that heat. more mass would then equal more surface area for the metal to dissipate that heat (yes, no, maybe?). attached shots show the difference in mass of the eradispeed vs. the stock brembo. since i don't quite know enough about the different kinds of iron/metals used in the brembo or eradispeed, i would also venture to say that a thicker rotor would be less prone to cracking. (again, yes, no maybe?) not to mention unsprung weight as thomas mentioned earlier
i've heard of some folks going thru the stock brembo rotors about every 3 events (these are guys doing several events a year versus my 3-4, if i'm lucky). i'd really like to see a set on someone's car that actually gets to 'threshold braking' just to see what the life of these rotors really are. regardless of what the guy in indy told me (i already had them, so he wasn't trying to sell me a set), i'd really like to know. if true, it'd save a bit of money also.
side note--2.30's is flyin around RA, not that i'll ever see that. i'll be lucky to break 3:00 next time on a fast lap! LOL

sn8kbit · 11-20-2002, 04:13 PM

another (i'll leave the 'pimpy' shots out of it....

)

98banana · 11-20-2002, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sn8kbit
another (i'll leave the 'pimpy' shots out of it.... )

Those Eradispeeds have got to suck the heat out of the pads better than stock. No doubt in my mind.

The Brembos on my car, which came from Brian Groth, lasted one day at CMP (hard on brakes), 2 wet days at Road Atlanta with the SCMC (we won't even count those) and 2 more hard, and I mean HARD, sessions at Road Atlanta (1:39 - 1:40 with a worn out trackloc (depending on who was holding the watch)). I know, that's not a lot of track time, but there was virtually no wear on the rotors. I did go through a set of CarboTech 1108's in that time frame though.

tgentry · 11-20-2002, 05:50 PM

Tom, I went through a set of Carbotech Panther XP (1108) pads in a day and a half at MAM. I loved the feel but not the pad life.

Maybe we need to have a discussion on braking technique. I must be doing something very wrong.

sn8kbit · 11-20-2002, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Maybe we need to have a discussion on braking technique

i agree, i for one know i'm way early on the brakes simply due to lack of knowledge.......

one of these days i'll learn.....

tgentry · 11-20-2002, 06:12 PM

Bill might have a point that applies to me. I've been working hard to get everything I can out of the Fairmont suspension. Could be that suspension upgrades will make brakes last longer by letting me carry more speed through the turns.

How's that for justification of expenses?

98banana · 11-20-2002, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tgentry
Tom, I went through a set of Carbotech Panther XP (1108) pads in a day and a half at MAM. I loved the feel but not the pad life.

Maybe we need to have a discussion on braking technique. I must be doing something very wrong.

Yeah, I went through the carbotechs as fast as the blues, but the difference was on the rotor side of it.

Braking technique wouldn't be a bad topic to start. Here's my technique: Wait as long as I can and then stomp on them until they are just about to lock up. Then pray that it wasn't too late.If it was, then do a little accidental trail braking into the corner and hope that the next lap is better.

In other words, I use my brake pedal like an on-off switch that has a little knowledge of lockup position. Is there any time that soft braking is advantageous. I've even heard that hard/late braking is better than soft/early braking when it comes to heat buildup. Not sure if I believe that one or not, but I don't know for sure.

Anyway, maybe this is good for another thread...

**Dean95CobraR** · 11-20-2002, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 98banana
I've even heard that hard/late braking is better than soft/early braking when it comes to heat buildup. Not sure if I believe that one or not, but I don't know for sure.

Anyway, maybe this is good for another thread...

I can believe this statement. I've always heard that the early/long braker will generate more heat than the hard/short braker. I see a lot of people practically coasting with the brake on and I believe this kills pad life.

I hear all this talk about Blues being bad on rotors and getting very short life. My lasted a very long time and I didn't have any brake cooling. Using a set of brake pads in one open tracking weekend just doesn't seem feasible.

tgentry · 11-20-2002, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 98banana
Here's my technique: Wait as long as I can and then stomp on them until they are just about to lock up. Then pray that it wasn't too late.If it was, then do a little accidental trail braking into the corner and hope that the next lap is better.

That sounds a lot like mine. I figure the later the better, and find that I gain ground on a lot of people in the braking zones.

Have also heard that short/hard braking is actually easier on equipment than long/soft braking. I would think it would be better for the fluid, and possibly for the pads.

tgentry · 11-20-2002, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dean95CobraR
Using a set of brake pads in one open tracking weekend just doesn't seem feasible.

Unless they're PF "Z" pads from Autozone!

I think I might try the PF 01 pads. I've heard excellent things about pad/rotor wear and performance.

sn8kbit · 11-20-2002, 06:38 PM

Quote:

I see a lot of people practically coasting with the brake on

i'll just go on and raise my hand at that one. being a novice and Road america being my first dry track, the speed alone at my skill level makes early braking an unconscious reaction. (for me anyway) it's almost like when i see the 5 brake marker it acts as a switch. by the end of the day sunday, i was trying to brake later, but this was also one of the reasons i was so surprised that those blues still had quite a bit of pad left.

fastoldman · 11-20-2002, 06:55 PM

b tone,

Please check the following year ( 2001 ) , and you will see I ran a 2:34.9. This is only to illustrate that I was doing okay in 2000 at 2:37, but the 3 extra seconds I found were enough to fry the fluid, and destroy the rotors and pads. I was using the same pads that the full blown race group was using, but the extra speed was too much for the stock rotors and a quality Dot 4 fluid. I put ducting on the car, and ran the same pads for an entire weekend at Mid Ohio with no concerns - I actually got another day at another track out of them. Keep in mind this is just a personal example to attempt to illustrate, what will happen as we all go faster. My Cobra's were the same ,in that they also were heavy cars that are faster than Trans Am cars of 20 years ago. The ducting and other items are just observations to help other track addicts, as we all have the same disease. And yes, the time of 2:34 was on Michelin MXX3's, as you will note in the rules Matrix, only street tires are allowed - and they must be Michelins.

Check out the General Discussion and come run with us, and I will buy you a beer. We are even better bench racers, and the guys are from 19-72, so you really get some interesting perspectives.

11-20-2002, 01:17 PM	#17
cobrabitn Dr Jekyll on the street, Mr Hyde on the track Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rock Hill SC Posts: 14,649	You tell them Bill! I wish you were coming to our driving school in the Spring. I really learned a lot from you and I am sure others will too. Out of all the events I have been to, I learned more from you in one session then I did in three years. Besides, you're a nice guy too! __________________ Cobrabitn 2016 Ruby Red Metallic with Caribou accent F-350 Crew Cab Stump Puller! 6.7 Diesel Automatic with Chrome Package, Off Road Package, 3.55 Locking axles, and Ultimate Lariat Interior Trim Package! 2017 Shelby GT350 Coupe - track car! Mods: JLT True Cold Air oil catch can 2009 Vista Blue Shelby GT 500 Coupe - Garage Queen Tinted Windows JLT True Cold Air Kit Pro-Dyno Tune 526 rwhp - 511 rwtq 1994 Rio Red Indy Pace Car #22 "Runabout" Snake in the grill MGW shift knob 1996 SVT Cobra Wheels 1969 New Lime Mustang Mach 1 Sportsroof - Second owner - bone stock with shaker. One SVT Cobra, one Shelby GT500, one 69 mach 1, and a Shelby GT350 is better than nothing! Custom Data Plates for your Mustang or Ford! Buy "Cool Merchandise" at Data Plates Plus www.dataplatesplus.com See my MSR Video here!

11-20-2002, 04:12 PM	#19
sn8kbit Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: music frickin city, USA Posts: 1,417	well, i'm not saying one is better than the other. maybe i worded it wrong. there are some benefits however to the eradispeed (solid) than the stock brembo. while i agree proper cooling and driving style do affect braking, i think that rotor design can also affect how the rotor cools. my understanding of braking (and i might be wrong, please correct me if i am) depends on how well the rotor absorbs, then dissipates that heat. more mass would then equal more surface area for the metal to dissipate that heat (yes, no, maybe?). attached shots show the difference in mass of the eradispeed vs. the stock brembo. since i don't quite know enough about the different kinds of iron/metals used in the brembo or eradispeed, i would also venture to say that a thicker rotor would be less prone to cracking. (again, yes, no maybe?) not to mention unsprung weight as thomas mentioned earlier i've heard of some folks going thru the stock brembo rotors about every 3 events (these are guys doing several events a year versus my 3-4, if i'm lucky). i'd really like to see a set on someone's car that actually gets to 'threshold braking' just to see what the life of these rotors really are. regardless of what the guy in indy told me (i already had them, so he wasn't trying to sell me a set), i'd really like to know. if true, it'd save a bit of money also. side note--2.30's is flyin around RA, not that i'll ever see that. i'll be lucky to break 3:00 next time on a fast lap! LOL Attached Images __________________ internet redneck.. 1999 Black Coupe Maximum Motorsports Kenny Brown IRS'd hybrid

11-20-2002, 04:13 PM	#20
sn8kbit Registered User Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: music frickin city, USA Posts: 1,417	another (i'll leave the 'pimpy' shots out of it.... ) Attached Images __________________ internet redneck.. 1999 Black Coupe Maximum Motorsports Kenny Brown IRS'd hybrid

11-20-2002, 05:50 PM	#22
tgentry Got Boost? Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 608	Tom, I went through a set of Carbotech Panther XP (1108) pads in a day and a half at MAM. I loved the feel but not the pad life. Maybe we need to have a discussion on braking technique. I must be doing something very wrong. __________________ Tom Gentry Life is too short for boring rides! '06 Schwinn StingRay Spoiler (3 speed conversion) '03 Giant Team ONCE (Campy goodness) '00 Bike E E2 Tandem (too many mods to list) '98 ProFlex Beast (no more elastomers) '06 Kustom Kruiser Roadster (8 speed conversion) '74 PPV (Resto-mod project) '98 E-150 Starcraft Heritage "Black Bart" '89 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL "Gunther"

11-20-2002, 06:12 PM	#24
tgentry Got Boost? Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Rockford, IL Posts: 608	Bill might have a point that applies to me. I've been working hard to get everything I can out of the Fairmont suspension. Could be that suspension upgrades will make brakes last longer by letting me carry more speed through the turns. How's that for justification of expenses? __________________ Tom Gentry Life is too short for boring rides! '06 Schwinn StingRay Spoiler (3 speed conversion) '03 Giant Team ONCE (Campy goodness) '00 Bike E E2 Tandem (too many mods to list) '98 ProFlex Beast (no more elastomers) '06 Kustom Kruiser Roadster (8 speed conversion) '74 PPV (Resto-mod project) '98 E-150 Starcraft Heritage "Black Bart" '89 Mercedes-Benz 560SEL "Gunther"

11-20-2002, 01:14 PM	#16
fastoldman Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 30	Then we are in agreement,as those are just some of the criteria, since we both are discussing driver differences can affect pad life, etc. This is only one area a driver can improve,and obviously you have some skill and one can not give a generic answer that will satisfy all drivers --- just giving some areas to ponder and nothing more.

11-20-2002, 01:37 PM	#18
b_tone Registered User Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 162	I have run near 1500 laps at Road America and I would simply be amazed that a stock viper could turn a 2:34 on stock tires. I have driven with vipers there and if you look at the results from this years event at Road America the fastest stock viper there was running right around 3 minutes. look here for the results I did find your results here and it looks like you ran Bill Pemberton 2:37.984. That is fast at road america I will give you that. Is that a flying lap? With the ford group we get timed from standing start so it's a bit different. One last note, it seems to me that you really were hard on pads if you burned a set up in 30 minutes unless they were stock pads. If the were a good performance/race pad then you did something strange with the middle pedal. Brian

11-20-2002, 06:55 PM	#30
fastoldman Registered User Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 30	b tone, Please check the following year ( 2001 ) , and you will see I ran a 2:34.9. This is only to illustrate that I was doing okay in 2000 at 2:37, but the 3 extra seconds I found were enough to fry the fluid, and destroy the rotors and pads. I was using the same pads that the full blown race group was using, but the extra speed was too much for the stock rotors and a quality Dot 4 fluid. I put ducting on the car, and ran the same pads for an entire weekend at Mid Ohio with no concerns - I actually got another day at another track out of them. Keep in mind this is just a personal example to attempt to illustrate, what will happen as we all go faster. My Cobra's were the same ,in that they also were heavy cars that are faster than Trans Am cars of 20 years ago. The ducting and other items are just observations to help other track addicts, as we all have the same disease. And yes, the time of 2:34 was on Michelin MXX3's, as you will note in the rules Matrix, only street tires are allowed - and they must be Michelins. Check out the General Discussion and come run with us, and I will buy you a beer. We are even better bench racers, and the guys are from 19-72, so you really get some interesting perspectives.

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