Verts w/o roll bars

[spittincobra01]

***warning, personal opinions and points of view enclosed. Please read and take as such***


I think safety is an important issue for everyone, or at least it should be! I bought a coupe for the safety and structural integrity of it. not to mention less weight =o) I still intend to install a 6 point roll cage with cross bar and harness bar as soon as I'm out of my warranty. NO QUESTIONS ASKED!

nastystrike, I don't know you and don't want to point fingers..... BUT your statement above is kind of like the "helmet for motorcycles" or "seat belt" laws, and your point doesn't hold water. I will agree with you on one thing, it is all a matter of choice. If you own a convertable you have the choice to install a roll bar or do a lead-follow session. You even have one more choice.... stay off track. That is the only sensible thing we as a club can do. It all becomes a liability issue, even beyond insurance. We live in a sinical, law suit crazed society, and have to CYA accordingly. Brian is absolutely right when he says there comes a point where you have to protect people from themselves. Working in the medical field for 9 years I have seen what can and WILL happen in a roll over situation involving occupants of a convertable. Not to mention anyone else who is on the track at the time that vert rolls and ejects the occupants into their path. I would have a hard time living with that if it were to happen to me.

My vote, keep the rules the same..... for everyones well being!

Matt

[97whitevert]

OK my .02...
as a vert owner, I will not take my car out for an alll out OT session. I thank the great people who were will ing to ride with me and teach me many things w/out a roll bar in the car; but i won't do that again. I do think that a lead follow, speed controled session is acceptable; it is a great way to get those who may not otherwise try an OT event (ie get them hooked and let them decide from there where to go).

[nastystrike]

Appears my comments ruffled some feathers so one more post and then I am done. I was under the impression that you were looking to prohibit verts from all track events. With that I disagree. There needs to be a forum where folks can drive their SVT cars safely and still have some fun. As I said before, I do not intend to race this car so Tony's rules work fine for me. I think the rules we used at TWS were fine, too. And, as a quick response to some of the other posts, I agree with requiring roll bars for racing cars; not all new members to this forum are new to the sport of racing; I do believe in wearing a helmet while riding my motorcycle and believe in wearing seat belts at all times. I, too, have been a member of the medical community for many years, realize the importance of safety, and am not trying to make any waves. If you have an event we vert owners can attend and participate in, we will come. Thanks for the forum.
Richard
'03 Torch Red Vert

[spittincobra01]

Richard you didn't ruffle any feathers, you just stated your opinion. As I did with mine. I did and still do disagree with your origional post, but after reading the second understand that you were under the wrong impression of what this club was doing.

I realize you are not new to racing, but since you are new to the club let me tell you a few things about the SCMC.

this is not your typical organization. We are more like a wide spread yet tight knit family. We all look out for one another, and help eachother out. We speak our minds, and offer up our insights, opinions, and experiences. We get together to have fun, but it has to be safe fun or we won't be able to do so in the future. We don't often sugar coat things we say, so instead we take things at face value. If we agree, we say so... if not, we say so. Just because people have different views doesn't make one more right than another... and definately doesn't mean they are offended. After you look around the forum some more, and get involved with other discussions you'll see what I mean.

Don't take offense to what I said, instead try to understand that we are out here looking out for the well being of other members. and that is what the SCMC is all about. Allowing a vert w/o a rollbar is not looking out for anyones well being. It is turning a blind eye to a potentially dangerous combination.

[johnbasf]

This is a club discussion, and a good one. I value all the opinions given. We want to include ALL club members. I hope all the "vert no roll bar" people understand the rules the club has. I don't want a disappointed member when I tell them to slow down at an open track event. Thanks for all the input.

[grasshopper]

Thanks for all the pro-rollbar input. When I bought my 99 vert , I was convinced I was going to put in a roll bar- until I learned that the 'light bar' is only a 2pt bar and probably won't provide any protection in a roll over (I think it should be called a "lite bar"). When looking into regulation for OT events at other clubs, I was faced with either not attending those events or putting in a 4pt roll bar which would greatly hinder back seat space. After a year of debating the issue I have finally decided to put in a custom 4pt roll bar that would still permit the use of the back seat.

It's not an easy decision and it's complicated by the fact that car manufacturers sell verts without roll bars. They appearantly thinks it's OK to drive 75mph in a rollbar-less vert. It's also difficult to modify the interior of such a nice car so that one might be able to enjoy the performance that the Cobras are designed to provide.

I'm not sure if I'd like to do a lead-follow session although it sounds like a good way to learn the preferred lines into curves/turns.
My first track event was a SVTOA event and I had no problem finding an instructor to ride with me (speeds less then 85). Thinking back on the event and how easy it was to get my Cobra going fast (or so I thought), I think I am overdue for a roll bar (even for daily driving). However, I wonder how safe a vert with a roll bar would be in a rollover. Wouldn't arms get broken or worse? Maybe arms get broken in a coupe roll over as well.... Regardless, coupes are safer, end of story.

Eventhough it is frustrating to have such a race ready car that is restircted on the track, I think the rules are appropriate. If you have a vert and have not been to an OT event, do a lead follow session. If you like it and want to go further, either get a 4pt roll bar or trade in for/buy a coupe. It's a tough choice to give up a vert once you have been hooked! I hope to have a coupe project car ready in 2004 (non-Cobra '') . If that goes well, I'll be looking for a ~94 Cobra for the next project- hopefully....

[Peter Calvert]

Grasshopper:

I too have a '99 convertible and I've installed a 6 point rollbar just so that I could do OT events. Regarding broken arms, etc., some clubs require convertibles to have arm restraints which attach to your seatbelts and make it impossible for your arms to go flailing around. I must say that they are uncomfortable and make it difficult to signal a pass but they do provide an extra measure of safety. I must also say that, even with all this safety equipment, I really don't want to 'test' it!!

[svt_coupe]

I've debated posting this picture because it appears to paint an apocalyptic picture for vert owners and I didn't want to scare away potential participants. However, this picture does illustrate the issue at hand very well and I firmly believe people who enjoy open tracking should be aware of these "what could happen" scenarios.

This M3 hardtop picture has got to be one of the most overused images on the internet when it comes to the rollover safety issue. Both the instructor and student walked away from this incident with only minor bumps and bruises. Stock seats will collapse with the roof line, allowing room for the occupants to move out of the way. Hence, the roof offers some protection from objects hitting passengers in a rollover. But in a vert, you can see where the problem would be without a rollbar. You need to have something to keep the car off your head.

With this said, there are some great examples of how you can enjoy this sport safely with a vert. Look no further than SCMC's own Dave Stanfield, Todd Shanaberger, or Tom Lewis' freakazoid Banana vert. I like the rules Tony and John have put together for verts and I think it's a great way for people to get exposed to open tracking.

By the way... I am the farthest thing from a safety expert, so don't "take my word for it" on this matter.

[cobrabitn]

Although I think most of our members will not be going ten tenths on the track, this is a good picture to put some fear in you whether you own a vert or not. Don't over estimate your abilities as a driver, many professional race car drivers have accidents.

Just try to be smart in the manner that you drive and you will avoid incidents like these. I own two hardtops and that pic even scares me of the thought of what could happen.

Thanks for sharing that with us Bryan!

[Black Horse]

Amen Bryan!

[grasshopper]

Bryan-
Thanks for the reminder that even coupes can benefit from roll bars. I believe that people who want to do track driving on a somewhat regular basis should have a roll bar/cage. I have spoken with Dave and I like the way he has his 6pt roll bar set up. The back down tubes actually bend around the back seat thereby allowing back seat access (straight tubes mount on the back of the back seat). I had wanted to do something similar but was told that the THSCC would only approve straight down tubes for OT events. I now decided not to run the car at THSCC track events and focus on SCMC events. I know, I was a little slow to realize how much fun Corba owners can be!

[johnbasf]

Bryan uses big words I don't understand.

[98banana]

Originally posted by johnbasf
Bryan uses big words I don't understand.

You mean like "freakaziod"? I've heard the banana called many things, but not freakazoid! LOL!

I don't think I've chimed in on this one yet...

I do not think 'verts should be allowed on any track without roll bars. I was thinking at first that if it is kept at highway speeds, it would be okay, but I've changed my mind. One thing that the driver does not do, or at least should not do, when on the highway is drive a race line. You normally keep it well within the painted lines and are pretty safe that way. On the race track, even in a lead-follow slow speed environment, you are riding at the edge of the track trying to learn the line. What happens whan you slip a wheel off the track, get caught trying to get back on the track and get into an accident. I know, not very likely to happen, but possible, right? Why risk it???

Do yourself a favor and bolt in at least a 4-point bar for the weekend. All it takes is removal of a few plastic panels to slap it in and then you can take it right back out on Monday. If you can afford a $150 - $300 weekend plus wear items, you can afford the roll bar.

Banana Motorsports is not in the business of streetable roll bars, at least not yet, but I'll make a deal with anybody that may need help putting the roll bar in the car: If you come to my house before the event with the roll bar, I'll help install it, no charge. I feel that strongly about having roll bars in a 'vert.

Tom

[spittincobra01]

thanks for the pic Brian, it shows the dangers we all face in this sport. I have 3 pics I want to share with this thread of what happened at my very first track event, on my first lap! This car was about 4 cars ahead of me, in a lead follow session at Road Atlanta in April, 2002

[spittincobra01]

infact, Tom was there on this day! Hi Tom!! I still owe you a couple dews