Brake Rotors

[Dean95CobraR]

Originally posted by tgentry
That's understandable, kart brakes look a little wimpy! Thinking of joining GGR?

Sorry, but there doesn't seem to be any chance of advancement in your club since your senior officers have a life time membership.

[Dean95CobraR]

Originally posted by 97whitevert
DEAN!!!!!!!!

that was uncalled for!!!!!!

I was wonderin how long it would take.

[fastoldman]

This is a very interesting thresd, and alot of thought has been brought to the table by alot of folks. The two ideas that are being brought out,in my humble opinion are not mutually compatible. Some are talking wear, while others are talking speed. Stock rotors, regardless of the vehicle are not a race set-up, and therefore as we go faster, the upgrade to an Eradispeed ( kind of a beginner race set-up ) will help with stopping distances and faster laps, but .......this is where we have to think about wear. Wear is all about heat, and if you are going faster, you will generate more heat. This is the old conumdrum that racers run into ---- " My stuff is wearing out faster!!" Of course, if we are going faster, then this is part of the equation. Braking earlier may extend brake pad and rotor life,but this has to be the drivers choice. If just having fun and going 8/10ths is the concern, then this is probably okay, but if speed is the concern, you will learn to brake late, and you will master trailbraking. This was my personal problem , and finally after 2 Panoz schools I realized I was getting the hang of it - effective trailbraking is an art and it takes time .Now after 2 more years I have realized , it is an arcane art, and it will make the underpowered car as fast or faster than the guy/gal with the built motor. When you get to a point where the brakes , with ducting, and high temp fluid ( Motol 600, Brakeman, AP 600 ) aren't working, it is probably a simple sign we all ignore ( because it involves money ) that you are overdriving your brakes. It is pretty humorous that when we finally get alot faster, we don't want to take the simple cues that we have reached a new plateau, and it is time to upgrade. At this point you can move efficiently to a better fluid ( Castrol SRF or Brakeman Xtreme 6 ), better rotors ( Eradispeed or StopTechs), etc.
These changes will make a big differences until the day, when you are running maybe 3 seconds faster than you have ever run on your favorite track before, and hopefully this time the light goes on and you realize....." Damn , I am at a new level ." This is where the Big Brake kits, ( Brakeman, StopTech, Baer ), High quality fluid, full race pads, etc. will come in and you will continue your quest for speed, by having alot smaller brake patch than your competitors.


PS - Long ago you should have gone to stainless steel lines to decrease flex, and moisture absorption ----remember brake fluid has an attraction to water.

[b_tone]

How does the increased thickness of the baer rotors play in with the stock thickness pads in the PBR? In what direction is the rotor wider? To clear that question---there is very litttle room to move to the center of the vehicle due to the toe link so is the increased thickness put on the outside of the rotor. My worry is that the rotor may not be not centered on the caliper thus providing the pad a higher drag on the rotor when not in use.

I agree with you on the trail braking aspect but I think you are taking my 'early braking' strategty a little too extreme, i.e. at road america coming into T5 I can brake at the 3 marker (with a terminal velocity around 160) but I usually brake at the 3.5-4 marker for that added little cushion.

I don't think that the speed gained in that 100 feet is what is going to make your lap faster, it's the controlled entry into the corner at the maximum lateral g's your car can sustain (this is where trail braking comes into play). keeping with the road america thought, if you exit T3 150rpm higher in a give gear you will be going much faster into 5 than if you had not. This is not based on braking at 10/10ths every corner it's based onthe corner speed you can carry.

Does this make any sense to anyone but me?

[tgentry]

Originally posted by b_tone
at road america coming into T5 I can brake at the 3 marker (with a terminal velocity around 160) but I usually brake at the 3.5-4 marker for that added little cushion.

Brian, look at this way: If you brake at the 5 marker instead of 4, will your lap times go up? BTW, turn 5 is scary enough at 130+, 160 must be a pretty wild ride!

Think of this hypothetical situation: Two identical cars and drivers, with identical corner lines and speeds. Car A brakes at the 4 marker, while car B stays in the throttle until the 3 marker. Who is going to be gaining there? Since we're discussing braking here I don't think it's fair to assume that car B will execute the corner any worse than car A.

In the real world, sure, we sometimes brake TOO late and end up blowing the corner, but in the real world we sometimes blow the corner for other reasons too. I think what makes this sport so challenging is the goal is to do everything perfect, every time. Some of us come closer than others, and go drive F1 cars.

[b_tone]

I have think that I will pass from this planet way before I will every run a perfect lap. hell, I don't think that I have ever run a perfect corner.

to each his own, just get the seat time and that will pay off in spades..

[Dean95CobraR]

Originally posted by b_tone
How does the increased thickness of the baer rotors play in with the stock thickness pads in the PBR? In what direction is the rotor wider? To clear that question---there is very litttle room to move to the center of the vehicle due to the toe link so is the increased thickness put on the outside of the rotor. My worry is that the rotor may not be not centered on the caliper thus providing the pad a higher drag on the rotor when not in use.

I believe the airgap between the rotor surfaces is narrower.

[sn8kbit]

wow, 160? now i know i'm braking early......LOL (and i'm slow LMAO) i notice the car "unsettling" depending on where i started my braking on T5 (hehe, this is gonna turn into how to attack RA...LOL) i was at maybe, MAYBE 120 (LOL) and at the top of that rise, i'd let about about half throttle and start braking at oh, say, 4.5. i'd also be dropping a couple of gears to try and set up the "hill climb" to T6. i see where you're coming from tone, and i agree. i'd like to concentrate more on speed thru the turn without having to add more to the equation, espcially at my level right now.
tone, it's the airgap between surfaces that makes the rotor thicker on the eradispeed. it's a curved vane designed rotor.

[b_tone]

I believe the airgap between the rotor surfaces is narrower.

if this is the case I don't see that as being any better. Sure the rotor can take more heat but will it be able to dissipate that heat with the reduced air flow through the center?

Whey you go to the 1.25" thick rotor (ala. baer, sierra, brembo, alcon) you also keep the gap to allow adequate airflow to transfer some of the heat to the surrounding atmosphere.

This is going in the direction more towards a solid rotor and you know the problem with those.

[fastoldman]

I absolutely felt 100% like you did Tone, as I was for years the King of Brake Pads and Rotors --- mine lasted alot longer than all my friend's equipment did. You answered your own question almost verbatim to what happened to me about 5 years ago. Did I think that the extra 100 ft of speed I gained made that much difference in the lap time-no. I also talked about the safety factor and a cushion, and I felt supreme smoothness made me quicker. After running aroung Road Atlanta ( Panoz School ) with some pretty salty drivers, I found I could waste the entire class , except these 3 guys, and I also began to understand that their cajones were bigger than mine in the braking dept. What I learned was their braking was more controlled and more polished, and therefore they were annihilating me in the corners. In answer to your comment on Road America ( you have one fast Stang cuz, I could only hit 160 in the Viper going into turn 5 )is whether any of us thought that extra 100 ft made that much difference and the answer 5 years ago , is heck no! The answer today is, 14 turns times 100ft is 1400 ft, heck yes it is a huge difference. Learning to trailbrake efficiently took quantum amounts of time off my laps there, and it is one reason I believe this arcane science is often the secret to going faster. Once at Derek Daly , the lead instructor discussed the winner of their racing challenge ( the winner at that time got to run a Toyota Atlantic for Team Green during the next season ) was able to trailbrake into two corners that no one else could master, and he ended up 5/10ths faster than all the rest - this was huge on a 1.1 mile road course. I am convinced that alot can be accomplished if you brake late and in control, as trailbraking you actually will exit quicker --fast in, fast out. Tough technique and it took me forever to acquire ( I still don't consider myself a master ) , but an area that will allow you to conquer your foes, even when they have more power.