Verts w/o roll bars

[johnbasf]

The "Pres" suggested I bring this disscusion to the BB. We are disscusing convertables without roll bars at our track events. This year at CMP and other tracks we ran them in a lead-follow no passing group. I need opinions on keeping it this way or just limiting verts w/o roll bars to parade laps. Thanks for your opinions.

[redsnake99]

As one of few in the club who have been in the position to understand what it feels like, I ran in a lead-follow at Road Atlanta shortly after buying my 99 Cobra. After that event, I made the decision to do the mods on my car to allow me to run anywhere I wanted to. For those who don't want to make that choice, I would vote to allow them to run in a lead-follow at not too great a speed, no passing.

It then becomes the convertible owner's choice, if you want to run fast and pass people, get a roll bar.

[cobragb]

I agree with Dave. But I would even farther, If you want to run wide open you should have a bar period..., coupe or convertible.

[Black Horse]

If we are a club to promote safe operation of our vehicles then I say no convertibles without rollbars, no matter what and all coupes using safety harness to have rollbars as well. Lets face it, you can roll a car at 40 mph!

OK that seems a little extreme...maybe there should be some middle ground.

I would propose:

1) Convertibles with no rollbars and unexperienced drivers MUST be in the beginner, no passing class. Instructor required, or strict lead/follow.

2) Convertibles must have rollbars to advance to higher level classes. Safety harness should be strongly recommended (prevent ejection if rollover).

3) I would also recommend that coupes without rollbars the use of safety harness be strongly discouraged if not disallowed alltogether except for the beginner level class (documented cases of head crushing during rollover where driver was not able to move due to the harness).

As much as I love everyone to have fun and take their cars to new limits...we all need to be able to walk away at the end of the day!

[nastystrike]

I have an old Datsun 2000 roadster which I have raced with a roll bar for safety's sake so I agree with you that roll bars make them safer. I don't intend to "race" my new Cobra, and I don't intend to modify it by putting a roll bar on it, but I do enjoy running it on the track like we did at TWS. One reason we join the SCMC club is to have a chance to run our Cobras as quickly and safely as possible. I believe it is safer on a track than on a country highway. There is no difference to the driver if he rolls over on a twisty back road or on a closed track - he gets hurt just as badly except there are EMS folks readily available at the track. While I, as a vert owner, appreciate your concern for safety, is seems the real issue is liability. I am sure that there are legal documents to release tracks and clubs from liability if there is an accident. Some instructors are reluctant to ride in verts and they have a right not to. If there were no instructors willing to ride, then the verts could not participate. However, if the driver is willing to take the risk, and the instructor is willing, and the track and the club are protected from liability, then the verts should be allowed to run. It's a freedom of choice issue. That's my opinion.

[svt_coupe]

John - I think you already know what I'm going to say. But...

I believe that newcomers to this sport do not fully understand the risks involved with taking a car on track at speed. When I started open tracking, I wasn't totally aware of what can and will go wrong. I don't want to say that I threw caution to the wind, but I most certainly would not do now some of the things I did earlier. Yes, the track is a relatively controlled environment (more so than a country road). But it only takes someone in front of you to drop oil/antifreeze at the right place and the car will go off track, regardless of the driver's experience level. Letting convertibles without rollbars run at speed is just begging for trouble, IMHO.

Two other factors that will probably make this a moot point anyway - I don't think you'll get instructors in the car (at least in this area) without rollover protection. And, getting insurance for an event where verts can run unrestricted is nearly impossible.

I don't want to be Mr. Doomsday, but after helping to organize events for 3 years now and having seen many incidents, I firmly believe there is a time when you have to protect people from themselves. If you are going to provide a place to play, you've got to make the playground safe.

With that said, I don't think you have to ban rollbar-less verts from the track. If there is sufficient demand, I vote for allowing verts in a non-passing, controlled speed run group.

[Levi]

John,
This is not a one time thing for me or the club, members need to prepare for this type of club event. I think you are correct in not allowing verts with out roll bars to any high speed track event. Racing around cons in a parking lot is NOTHING like the speeds that can be reached at an event like TWS and I think they should be Roll Cages. I plain on doing a lot more open track events and do not want to see anyone get hirt. I have a coupe and I am going to get a Roll Cage as soon as I can, for my safty is number one.

Thanks,
Stan

[cobrabitn]

This is just for the record as I would like to read everyone's opinion on this topic. These are the rules the SCMC goes by at our OT events for convertibles without rollbars:

1) No passing
2) Lead follow session
3) Street tires per insurance company
4) Speed limited -- for CMP it is 95 mph
5) No instructor will be forced to ride with anyone in a droptop without a rollbar, it's their option. They may also consider going at a slower pace to show the owner the correct lines.

We want to promote a fun atmosphere but we also want to take safety to the utmost extreme while including as many SCMC members as possible. Remember, this is a driving school, not a timed race. We will not tolerate racing wheel to wheel at our events, that's why you have NASA, right Bryan?

Thanks,

Tony

[svt_coupe]

Tony - we see eye to eye on this. You guys know I'm a safety freak - I've just seen too many incidents and the "no rollbar in verts" thing is something I'm passionate about.

Like we did last year (which ran great), I think the rules you have outlined above are great. I see no reason to change them.

[johnbasf]

If the instuctors don't ant to ride in the car couldn't they do a lead follow in their car?? I thank you all for your input. The club rules that Tony posted sound good to me.

[Mystic_Cobra]

I agree with what's in the rules, also.

[Hazman]

My wife and I had a great time at Gingerman last year in our 97 vert. When we got back from Gingerman the one mod for my car that was non-negotiable was a 4-point spec roll bar with cross brace and harness bar. Number two on the list was good harnesses and number three was Snell SA not M helmets for both of us.

I want to do several open track events this year but I want to be safe while doing them. I also want the roll bar for everyday driving. You never know when you will hit water or loose gravel or some idiot will hit you and in a vert you are extremely vulnerable.

As for it being a club liability issue, the cost of insurance is only going up and if verts having roll bars will save the club money so we can do more events then I am all for it.

[cobrabitn]

John,

I think that is the best idea so that we insure the proper speed while on the track.

[Peter Calvert]

John et al:

I agree with what the others have said - i.e. convertibles need rollbars above the beginner class. This is a safety issue and we're out there having fun. The last thing that we want is for someone to get hurt.

When I went to my first event a couple of years ago I'd just spent a few bucks on a lightbar. When told that I wouldn't be able to move out of the novice group without a rollbar, I got a six-pointer and I've been having a 'blast' ever since. Bu the way, anyone want a slightly used lightbar??

I also installed a 5-point harness and this year I found out about arm restraints. I now have both for driver and passenger. Safety is the issue.

Peter - ZZOOM

[John Mouvery]

John,

My vote would be for verts to be required to have rollbars at any speed during OT events. There's too much at risk and it's too easy to rollover. Even at slow speeds, a rollover would not be favorable to occupants in a barless vert.

John M.
'94 Coupe w/ full 6 point cage